ZoneImaging Photochemicals: A new photochemical company

[Tom Kershaw]

Or he spent a lot of time trawling Ron's writing here & elsewhere.

Lachlan, the idea of a "custom" C-41 process being preferential sounds like bullshit to me, I want my colour negatives processed to a certain standard, and if red is enhanced, again what does that mean, do I want super-saturated colours?...

 

[Dusty Negative]

I could take a tablet and the film would be developed? Now that would be really cool!

Not on an empty stomach, however.

 

[pentaxuser]

Jemzyboz may of course be a busy individual which may depend on what his profession might be but in addition to his profession he seems to be an enthusiastic supporter of Zone Imaging so I imagine he will at least tell us of his experience with Zone Imaging. I presume this will be as a satisfied customer with good reasons for his faith in Zone Imaging but whatever his connection is, we need to know in order to gauge the value to the rest of us of Zone Imaging

Jemzyboz, just let us know in what capacity your faith in Zone Imaging is based so all my above speculation and that of others' can cease

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

Lachlan, the idea of a "custom" C-41 process being preferential sounds like bullshit to me, I want my colour negatives processed to a certain standard, and if red is enhanced, again what does that mean, do I want super-saturated colours?...

I'll put it this way, if it was genuinely 'better' and not simply some ex post facto speciousness to cover up for a lack of knowledge as to why a posted formulae (even an impeccably sourced one) might differ in terms of results from the manufactured 'official' C-41, I'd expect more detailed disclosures & proper data (Status M densitometry would be the barest minimum - and preferably microdensitometry too to show if there was deviance from published specs that could affect sharpness). And I can't exclude the original formulators of the various currently popular staining developers from this either. They're just as guilty of the same lack of meaningful disclosure in favour of subjective self-assessment. The problem is that if people actually realised that enacting basic process controls properly and consistently with the mainstream developers would remove 99.99% of their complaints about supposed 'shortcomings' of ID-11 and the like, they'd have to get on with actually making images & printing them.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

the idea of a "custom" C-41 process being preferential sounds like bullshit to me, I want my colour negatives processed to a certain standard, and if red is enhanced, again what does that mean, do I want super-saturated colours?...

I would hazard a guess that there is a real customer demand for such 'features'. If a custom C41 developer can alter specific colors in a controlled way, there'll be many users who would want to use it. If the new photchemicals company wants to cater to such user demands, nothing wrong with it.

 

[AgX]

I'll put it this way, if it was genuinely 'better' and not simply some ex post facto speciousness to cover up for a lack of knowledge as to why a posted formulae (even an impeccably sourced one) might differ in terms of results from the manufactured 'official' C-41.

But this firm does not sell pseudo-C41 chemical kits, but instead, to own saying, uses such process in their lab.
Why then? To save costs over the kits available readymade, or to offer their processing clientele something different?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

The "Kodak engineer" could be an engineer like Sirius Glass - a software engineer!

@laser is a Kodak engineer.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Why then? To save costs over the kits available readymade, or to offer their processing clientele something different?

@AgX: Do you rule out the possibility that they simply might not want to use any 20th century formulations in their lab? Maybe their customers prefer if not explicitly demand 21st century formulations. The C41 substitute could very well be a 21st century innovation like Cinestill's CS6 creative slide 3-bath kit for E-6 films.

 

[AgX]

I put this up as question. There are things going on at the internet market that often slip my attention. Or my understanding, as the request for ECN films. Which seemingly started just out of a request for cheaper offerings and now has turned into a request for that material as such.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I would hazard a guess that there is a real customer demand for such 'features'. If a custom C41 developer can alter specific colors in a controlled way, there'll be many users who would want to use it. If the new photchemicals company wants to cater to such user demands, nothing wrong with it.

The thing is, you can alter C-41 colours in specific ways without mucking up the developer - what you need is a developer that develops all the emulsions in all the layers correctly as that makes it much easier to then modify colour globally/ specifically at the print stage (which is the point) - and if you need extended techniques to modify saturation etc (looping), reasonable accuracy & controllability help too - quite apart from print controls also having applicability here as well. And there have been C-41 variants in the past (Ilford's XP-1 developer for example), but they existed from a considerably higher baseline of fundamental knowledge to deal with specific needs. And finally, he isn't optically printing but scanning in an ill-defined way - so we neither know if he has hidden colour errors, or if the effects are smaller than he claims but is being exaggerated by how he is scanning.

But this firm does not sell pseudo-C41 chemical kits, but instead, to own saying, uses such process in their lab.

Possibly because if he attempted to sell it commercially he'd be hit with cease & desist for passing-off. Or that there are issues that would become obvious if it was sold commercially. He spent a lot of time trying to get people to tell him how to formulate C-41 chemicals on Facebook groups.

Why then? To save costs over the kits available readymade, or to offer their processing clientele something different?

Marketing to an audience who have not got enough baseline knowledge to understand the variables in the process and delusions of glory at being 'better' than KRL, Agfa, Fuji, Ilford, Adox etc's researchers. Dunning-Kruger essentially.

@AgX: Do you rule out the possibility that they simply might not want to use any 20th century formulations in their lab? Maybe their customers prefer if not explicitly demand 21st century formulations. The C41 substitute could very well be a 21st century innovation like Cinestill's CS6 creative slide 3-bath kit for E-6 films.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. It's attempting to pretend that a failed formulation (without enough chemical backup to find/ understand/ resolve why it is doing this) is somehow 'better' without ever having tried to get it right in the first place. If the guy is on here using a sock puppet account - that doesn't speak highly of his practices does it? I'd have more time if he was more honest about how he'd gone about it & was more open to working to get it right, rather than pushing a bunch of chemically nonsensical claims on underinformed consumers.

Cinestill are doing something that doesn't pretend to be better than regular HQMS-K E-6 - and it is readily traceable as to what they are doing - none of which is new or unknown/ undocumented in the literature. They merely provide a pre-packaged form of what are straightforward First Developer variations/ failures with creative value.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well there would appear to be reasons why Zone Imaging is getting sideways glances from some on Photrio. It would be nice if Jemzyboz were to tell us at least the basis of his clear faith in Zone Imaging as,I presume a very satisfied who has enough experience with said company to substantiate his satisfaction

Maybe we'll get a response in the next few days? If not, then it will help me to draw my conclusions

pentaxuser

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It would be nice if Jemzyboz were to tell us at least the basis of his clear faith in Zone Imaging as,I presume a very satisfied who has enough experience with said company to substantiate his satisfaction

No idea who this person is but to be fair to him (hope this is the right pronoun to use in this context, apologies if it isn't), he only talked about testimonials, Ian's conversations in another forum and data sheets. All these are available to everybody including you.

 

[pentaxuser]

No idea who this person is but to be fair to him (hope this is the right pronoun to use in this context, apologies if it isn't), he only talked about testimonials, Ian's conversations in another forum and data sheets. All these are available to everybody including you.

It would be simply nice if he were to say what his relationship is to Zone Imaging. He clearly is an enthusiast for their products and I wonder what this is based upon. He may have some great experiences as a customer in terms of buying and using its products but it would be nice if he were to tell us. Just give us his testimonials on the various products. Wouldn't this be helpful for all of us?

You must excuse me if I remain a little concerned but when I see a few posts from a relatively new member on one subject, namely Zone Imaging in short succession on the thread, I just wonder what his relationship, if any, is with it?

I recall many years ago, a new arrival whom I think called himself Lowell Huff suddenly began to extol the virtues of a certain product. He was also very enthusiastic. All his posts were about what this company's products could do. This seemed to extend into them being capable of solving problems that other similar products couldn't

It turned out shortly afterwards that he had a direct connection to a company called Clayton Chemicals which he had not declared initially

So yes like some others I get concerned about such possibilities

If you do not have any concerns then fine but I assume that you like any other consumer might like to know what if any relationship with, experience of, Zone Imaging he might have

If it's simply that he likes its style, what it is trying to do etc but has as yet no other relationship with it not even as a consumer, then all he has to do is just say

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

I will wait to see if they can deliver on their claims.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I recall many years ago, a new arrival whom I think called himself Lowell Huff suddenly began to extol the virtues of a certain product. He was also very enthusiastic. All his posts were about what this company's products could do. This seemed to extend into them being capable of solving problems that other similar products couldn't

It turned out shortly afterwards that he had a direct connection to a company called Clayton Chemicals which he had not declared initially.

Interesting! I wasn't aware of this Lowell Huff episode. Shilling is indeed unethical and needs to be called out. Wonder why businesses hire such shills who get exposed easily. Seems to be a naive strategy which ends up hurting the business. Or maybe it works well with uninformed and unsuspecting users.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Raghu It certainly bothers me if a member has a vested interest in a company but chooses not to declare it. Jemzyboz may not have such a vested interest but it would be nice if he were to declare himself to be no more that either a satisfied customer and then tells us of his experience with Zone Imaging or declare himself to be simply a supporter of any independent company that is trying to add to our choice even if he is yet to use and test any of Zone Imaging's products

Just out of curiosity, how did you happen to come across this company?. It's a new name to me

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

Too many questions and not enough answers about this new company.

 

[pentaxuser]

Too many questions and not enough answers about this new company.

Well I am doing my best,Sirius, to get the one person who may or may not be able to tell us more to reply

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well I am doing my best,Sirius, to get the one person who may or may not be able to tell us more to reply

pentaxuser

And I appreciate your work.

 

[Jemzyboz]

Bloody hell, there has been some activity here in such a short time...

@pentaxuser I am a customer, I bought it recently to try out after seeing the results being posted by users on the UK Film Photography and Darkroom Facebook group and was curious. My only connection to James Lane is that he is the admin and I believe started the Facebook group. He has a strong following on there and frankly I support him for his hard work for the UK community solely based on that and thus why I was defending him. This is also why I don't spend much time here on this forum, I find it quite toxic and it is much more like enjoyable being on Facebook group forums...

I'm just a person that enjoys making photographs for myself and don't get into the hard technical side of things so I can't make any advanced observations on 510 Pyro simply to say that yes it is good, it seems to be popular and people shouldn't be making all these criticisms without actually trying it. So try it and then criticise if you still don't like it

Someone mentioned surprise that he is connected at a young age, I'm not surprised. I remember seeing a post of his last year saying that he met the CEO of Harman at the Photography Show and he was an exhibitor and speaker there. I think he will go far honestly.

My personal thoughts of James for his expertise is that yes he is inexperienced and new to photochemistry when it comes to comparing to people like you Lachlan but also remember that he is young, we are not. Who else is going to continue film photography in the future? The young or the old?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

My personal thoughts of James for his expertise is that yes he is inexperienced and new to photochemistry when it comes to comparing to people like you Lachlan but also remember that he is young, we are not. Who else is going to continue film photography in the future? The young or the old?

I wouldn't make too many assumptions about the age and experience of people on this forum. Why should marketing nonsense be encouraged in any way?

 

[Jemzyboz]

I wouldn't make too many assumptions about the age and experience of people on this forum. Why should marketing nonsense be encouraged in any way?

I don't understand your question, Tom.

All I'm saying is that I think James is trying to do a good thing and anything that benefits the film photography community should be encouraged. That is my belief and my opinion and you might not share it, that's okay.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'll put it this way, if it was genuinely 'better' and not simply some ex post facto speciousness to cover up for a lack of knowledge as to why a posted formulae (even an impeccably sourced one) might differ in terms of results from the manufactured 'official' C-41, I'd expect more detailed disclosures & proper data (Status M densitometry would be the barest minimum - and preferably microdensitometry too to show if there was deviance from published specs that could affect sharpness).

spottled this article: https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2021/09/james-lane-film-lab-entrepreneur-friday-focus/

to quote 'Zone Image Labs also provide colour processing, although many of his existing customers are unaware of this service. James has formulated his own C41 developer recipe which increases the saturation in the reds providing a result closer to the Kodak Flexicolor chemistry.' - so is he saying his product is equivalent to the industry standard or does it provide "custom" results? - seems rather circular and ill-defined.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I'm just a person that enjoys making photographs for myself.. I can't make any advanced observations on 510 Pyro simply to say that yes it is good,

Nice! Nothing beats the joy of making photographs and sharing the joy. Can you share some photographs that you made with 510-Pyro? You might have posted some in the UK Facebook group but not everyone is in that group which is a private group.

 

[Ian Grant]

Scanning
Zone Imaging Labs also offer several scanning options. DSLR scanning is the preferred method with customers being sent RAW files. James reflects that photographers who have moved to the UK from other countries expect this method, and notes that the UK is behind in making this the norm.

Taken from the Silvergrain article,, definitely not a high end lab scan

Ian