Zone System - who has an easy to follow - simple guideline to setting it up

[Nicholas Lindan]

If there a difference here between rating your film 2/3 slower than box speed and 2/3 stop?

Derating to 2/3 of a stop of box speed is using a speed of 320 (DIN 26) for TriX-400 (DIN 27);
Derating by 2/3 of a stop is using a speed of 250 (DIN 25);

Derating to 2/3 of box speed is using 67% of box speed or using a speed of 270 for Tri-X 400;
Derating by 2/3 of box speed is using 33% of box speed or using a speed of 125 - which more than likely is something done by only one or two iconoclasts .

The whole thing is vague. Pick the one that agrees with your prejudice - there isn't all that much difference. As light meters go by 1/3 stops most just set the meter at 320 or 250 and call it a day. The 50%'ers among us use 200.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

This link might be of interest for finding a personal film speed and development time.

A film and development test to improve your negatives. One roll of film.

I was asked the other day by my friend Luis GV Caso, if there was a way of doing an exposure and development test using one roll of film. I knew how I would tackle it if I was working in my own dar…

thewebdarkroom.co.uk

 

[foc]

I always shoot at box speed and have never used the zone system.

Am I a philistine?

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

I always shoot at box speed and have never used the zone system.

Am I a philistine?

No, because if it works for you, that is all that matters.

 

[BrianShaw]

I always shoot at box speed and have never used the zone system.

Am I a philistine?

Only if your first name is Phil. Otherwise, you’re probably still Irish.

 

[GregY]

Only if your first name is Phil. Otherwise, you’re probably still Irish.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Poor man's visual densitometer : take a piece of black cardboard and punch a couple of regular paper punch 1/4 inch holes in it about two inches apart. Set your sample negative atop and light box, referencing your target area through one hole, and a calibrated step tablet adjacent to it, visible through the other hole, sliding your step tablet back and forth until the two densities appear to match.

For beginner purposes, you want the threshold of shadow density to be about .15 above fbf (film base plus fog - as measured on the unexposed edge of the negative). You don't have to be exact for learning purposes. Pinning down reproducible shadow density first is important because we're dealing with the axiom, "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights".

You might find it necessary to shoot a particular film at lower than box speed in order to get all the texture you desire in the shadow areas. But there is no "one shoe size fits all" rule because black and white films differ from one another in terms of their "toe" linearity, where shadow gradation occurs.

Correct highlight density is best determined by trial and error on test strips with your preferred printing paper. If you have trouble attaining enough contrast, you need to develop your film longer. If you get too much contrast, or if your highlights are blown out devoid of texture, shorten your development time.

Of course, this all pertains to your subject matter itself, and the specific contrast range of the scene. So it all takes some practice shooting and printing. Some people are help by thinking of all this in terms of Zone placement, some are not.

 

[Bill Burk]

Tonight I will mix a fresh liter of D76 from scratch and let it age overnight for testing tomorrow.

Plan on starting at Ilford recommended time/temp for the first sheet and then decrease development time for the next two sheets by 1 minute each.

Why not spread the times around probably the outer edges of your expected developing time like 5, 7, 11, 17 minutes (like f/stop timing, but for development times)

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I am a little confused now. Is this not the same thing? If I have a 400 speed film then I just rate it at 250 which is two x one thirds slower than box speed

If there a difference here between rating your film 2/3 slower than box speed and 2/3 stop?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Let's see. 400 ISO minus 2/3-stop is E.I. 250. 400 x .67 (2/3) is 268, close here. Now let's take ISO 100 minus 2/3 stop = E.I. 64. 2/3 of 100 is 66, also close. ISO 800 -2/3 stop = 500. 2/3 of 800 is 533, also close.

So, I guess it is roughly the same thing, I just never thought of figuring it that way, but rather rating the film slower by counting down ISO numbers.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I always shoot at box speed and have never used the zone system.

Am I a philistine?

Nope. I wouldn't use the Zone System for shooting roll film in a camera with a built-in meter. I might even use box speed too, if that gave good results.

The Zone System was conceived with large-format film and a spot meter in mind. Unless you're using those, there are more convenient ways to get good results.

The major advantage of the ZS for me is the visualization aspect. It helps me streamline my printing and saves me film (I'm more confident I have what I want, so I don't shoot a backup). I don't think people who practice an ultra-precise version of the ZS really get the precision they are striving for in real-life situations anyway.

I often do more testing and calibration than I've recommended for the OP, but only out of curiosity or to solve a particular problem. The OP was after a quick-start method; I don't think they need to take up sensitometry, curve-plotting or buy a densitometer to get good results. I've never had/done any of those things. One can always take up those things later.

Best,

Doremus

 

[pentaxuser]

Let's see. 400 ISO minus 2/3-stop is E.I. 250. 400 x .67 (2/3) is 268, close here. Now let's take ISO 100 minus 2/3 stop = E.I. 64. 2/3 of 100 is 66, also close. ISO 800 -2/3 stop = 500. 2/3 of 800 is 533, also close.

So, I guess it is roughly the same thing, I just never thought of figuring it that way, but rather rating the film slower by counting down ISO numbers.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks Using the ISO dial when it is available as it is on a lot of cameras is what I do. I may be spoiled by my both my Pentaxes 35mm and MF which have the electronic equivalent of 1/3 of a stop throughout their speed ranges

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

I always shoot at box speed and have never used the zone system.

Am I a philistine?

No, you are not a Philistine. I have always used box speed, except to the time I experimented with derating the film speed, and a use the Zone System exposure adjustment when I want more detail in the shadows.

 

[Kino]

Why not spread the times around probably the outer edges of your expected developing time like 5, 7, 11, 17 minutes (like f/stop timing, but for development times)

The suggested development time for Delta 100 @ 68f/20c is 12 minutes. I can see going in increments of 2 minutes down each time, so I might go with that and extrapolate the in-betweens...

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Zone system!
Start with a film camera, the more expensive the better but it must be able to take single shots or have a interchangeable back.
Choose a subject to photograph , anything, any time of the day, interesting or not.
Take your photo and add other exposures at plus one stop of exposure then two stops of exposure .
Reverse the sequence and make exposures at less one stop and two stops etc.
Now it becomes interesting.
Develop your film for more time than the multimillion $$$ manufacturer recommends or if there is an R in the month reduce the developing time!
When printing the negatives use multigrade paper and a developer whose name as not yet been accepted by the Oxford dictionary.
The plot thickens.
Whilst exposing your negatives to a paper that is preferably unobtainable in most regions that have film cameras be sure to use the spit grade exposure technique whilst waving around deformed cardboard cutouts and sticks that look like lollipops.
We are not done yet.
When fully developed , to fix the image re fix it in case you error ed with the first fix!
Now the print has to be dried.
Do not hang the print to dry , use a space consuming screen dryer so that your prints can rest overnight until dry.
Once the print is dry then it has to be mounted for greater effect.
Make sure your mount board is of archival quality that is a piece of cardboard that costs more than the cheep stuff.
When all is done then please display your print to friends and family.
Just hope they don't say..
What is it?
@#%, it's out of focus!

Enjoy your photography.
keep safe.

TB

 

[GregY]

Zone system!
Start with a film camera, the more expensive the better but it must be able to take single shots or have a interchangeable back.
Choose a subject to photograph , anything, any time of the day, interesting or not.
Take your photo and add other exposures at plus one stop of exposure then two stops of exposure .
Reverse the sequence and make exposures at less one stop and two stops etc.
Now it becomes interesting.
Develop your film for more time than the multimillion $$$ manufacturer recommends or if there is an R in the month reduce the developing time!
When printing the negatives use multigrade paper and a developer whose name as not yet been accepted by the Oxford dictionary.
The plot thickens.
Whilst exposing your negatives to a paper that is preferably unobtainable in most regions that have film cameras be sure to use the spit grade exposure technique whilst waving around deformed cardboard cutouts and sticks that look like lollipops.
We are not done yet.
When fully developed , to fix the image re fix it in case you error ed with the first fix!
Now the print has to be dried.
Do not hang the print to dry , use a space consuming screen dryer so that your prints can rest overnight until dry.
Once the print is dry then it has to be mounted for greater effect.
Make sure your mount board is of archival quality that is a piece of cardboard that costs more than the cheep stuff.
When all is done then please display your print to friends and family.
Just hope they don't say..
What is it?
@#%, it's out of focus!

Enjoy your photography.
keep safe.

TB

Melvin..... Rob Skeoch....the OP who asked the question is a longtime pro photographer.... from/in Ontario if i remember.....in fact he also used to sell LF gear. Pretty sure he knows the normal nuts & bolts. Here he is featured by Ilford this year.

Rodeo Cowboys

From the adrenaline-fueled 6-second rides to the dust-filled arenas, join Rob Skeoch on this photographic journey, ‘Rodeo Cowboys’.

www.ilfordphoto.com

 

[MattKing]

Rob's experience is what made his request so interesting for me. I'd love to find out why he is asking this question now.
Talking with photographers about how they came to be where they are in their photographic journey is something I really enjoy.

 

[GregY]

Rob's experience is what made his request so interesting for me. I'd love to find out why he is asking this question now.
Talking with photographers about how they came to be where they are in their photographic journey is something I really enjoy.

Well I'm just guessing, but Rob was known for sportsphotography....& if you're working for a newspaper or wire service, there are people who process film & print for you... but through his blog....he did go back to do an MFA....

The Picture Desk

This is the blog of professional photographer Rob Skeoch. I hope you enjoy the postings.

thepicturedesk.blogspot.com

 

[Bill Burk]

I’ve got a resource on Photrio that you may enjoy.

Divided Attention

This is my approach to the Zone System and Sensitometry The working title, Calling Your Shot, refers to the promise and appeal of the Zone System. Divided Attention refers to the two sides of the brain, and how I tried to divide the duties...

www.photrio.com

 

[Castrillo]

The negative Ansel Adams appendix I : test procedures for films
If you know how to establish relations between density and EV you will not need a densitometer.

Si domina el idioma español: “El sistema de zonas de Manolo Laguillo” (el libro está descatalogado y es muy caro de segunda mano).

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Let's see. 400 ISO minus 2/3-stop is E.I. 250. 400 x .67 (2/3) is 268, close here. Now let's take ISO 100 minus 2/3 stop = E.I. 64. 2/3 of 100 is 66, also close. ISO 800 -2/3 stop = 500. 2/3 of 800 is 533, also close.

So, I guess it is roughly the same thing, I just never thought of figuring it that way, but rather rating the film slower by counting down ISO numbers.

Best,

Doremus

Here's a chart showing the actual stops for film and lenses. Because we're calculating with Pi which is the area of the aperture opening (I think, or maybe it's squares, or both?) it's not calculated by the fraction 1/3 or 2/3. 2/3 of a stop less than 400 is actually 250. 1/2 stop between 200 and 400 is actually 280 not 300.
https://photographylife.com/what-are-exposure-stops-in-photography#iso-sensitivity-stops

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

What bothers me about stops in large-format photography, is that the stops do not click. You have to look at the lens to align the aperture setting. This is unlike my 35mm (Nikomat) and medium format (Mamiya RB67) where the stops click as you rotate the aperture ring. Hard stops make it easier to change settings without moving around and looking at the lens. All you have to do is count the clicks from the original setting making sure you're going the right way. Convenient if you're bracketing. One downside with the RB67 lenses is the aperture stops are 1/2 stops rather than 1/3 stops although I doubt if that makes a practical difference.

 

[Don_ih]

Hard stops make it easier to change settings without moving around and looking at the lens.

But it always turns out to be such a good idea to look at the lens, because it increases the likelihood you'll notice the shutter is still open.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Alan - hard aperture stops make it harder to set precise increments. But there are behind the camera systems for setting everything in front, although they seem better adapted for studio use of a view camera than out in the field.

I just accept view camera lens adjustments as a slower but potentially more precise manner of working than with typical MF or 35mm gear.

That article you linked in plainly not ideal information with respect to large format work, where stops smaller than f/22 tend to be routine.

The Zone System itself primarily had large format sheet film first in mind, since sheets can be individually assigned to specific development categories. Carrying multiple roll film backs also facilitate that. Otherwise, it has to be based on the preponderance of images on any given roll, with an inevitable odd duck or two remaining to contend with in some other manner.

 

[pentaxuser]

I wonder if the average photographer and the average viewer can tell the difference easily between a speed that is between the figures given by the range of film speeds on the camera's dial? By that I mean is it possible to easily see and appreciate the "improved quality of say an EI of 280 and either 320 or 250 which is what the film speed dials?

Ceteris paribus conditions being assumed, of course in such a test

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

The whole object of "proper exposure" is to come as close to the minimum needed without going below it in order to optimize shutter speed and aperture possibilities and reduce graininess (with small film, especially). There is a whole stop or two of acceptable exposure above that which will produce equally excellent prints, maybe even more with large film where graininess is less of an issue.

What determines "proper exposure" is the density and printability of shadow details. There are really no standards here, just practical, empirical (and subjective) print evaluations - "first excellent print" and all that.

A large part of deciding on a personal E.I. is just how you, individually, want to render shadow detail. Some like the look of pushing: detailless shadows and stretched contrast. Some like fully-detailed luminous shadows and a long dynamic range. The Zone System can be used for both. Knowing your medium and how it works is the point, not some mechanical parroting of Ansel Adams sensibilities.

Most beginning photographers who complain about the quality of their prints could improve things dramatically by just giving more exposure to start with.

Nailing a ZS personal E.I. to a third of a stop one way or the other so that you are right at the point of minimum exposure is not only difficult but leaves no room for error. It's better to err on the side of slight overexposure than underexposure - period - no matter which size film you are using. Better to start learning the ZS with slight overexposure and adjust later than the other way around. When in doubt, overexpose a bit.

Best,

Doremus