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Don‘t you forget the toe and the shoulder of the density curves of the photographic materials?I don't know why I didn't realize this before, but I think I finally understand part of the reason why I have been having trouble understanding the finer points of the zone system, at least in a quantitative sense. The reason is that it makes no sense in a quantitative sense, assuming we discuss it in terms of powers of two. By this I mean that if we assume that each step in the zone system corresponds to a power of two in exposure then the system is mathematically inconsistent.
Let me explain. Let us assume, for example, that an object that of 100% reflectance is placed in zone 9. Then 50% reflectance (corresponding to a one f-stop difference) would be in zone 8, 25% reflectance would be in zone 7, 12.5% reflectance would be in zone 6, and 6.25% reflectance would be in zone 5. Here is the inconsistency. Zone 5 is commonly said to correspond to 18% reflectance, but the 6.25% number we get by counting down from zone 9 is only about a third of 18%. Therefore, the zone system is not mathematically consistent.
My conclusion is that, while the zone system may be qualitatively/conceptually useful, it is not quantitatively correct.
I don't know why I didn't realize this before, but I think I finally understand part of the reason why I have been having trouble understanding the finer points of the zone system, at least in a quantitative sense. The reason is that it makes no sense in a quantitative sense, assuming we discuss it in terms of powers of two. By this I mean that if we assume that each step in the zone system corresponds to a power of two in exposure then the system is mathematically inconsistent.
Let me explain. Let us assume, for example, that an object that of 100% reflectance is placed in zone 9. Then 50% reflectance (corresponding to a one f-stop difference) would be in zone 8, 25% reflectance would be in zone 7, 12.5% reflectance would be in zone 6, and 6.25% reflectance would be in zone 5. Here is the inconsistency. Zone 5 is commonly said to correspond to 18% reflectance, but the 6.25% number we get by counting down from zone 9 is only about a third of 18%. Therefore, the zone system is not mathematically consistent.
My conclusion is that, while the zone system may be qualitatively/conceptually useful, it is not quantitatively correct.
I don't know why I didn't realize this before, but I think I finally understand part of the reason why I have been having trouble understanding the finer points of the zone system, at least in a quantitative sense. The reason is that it makes no sense in a quantitative sense, assuming we discuss it in terms of powers of two. By this I mean that if we assume that each step in the zone system corresponds to a power of two in exposure then the system is mathematically inconsistent.
Let me explain. Let us assume, for example, that an object that of 100% reflectance is placed in zone 9. Then 50% reflectance (corresponding to a one f-stop difference) would be in zone 8, 25% reflectance would be in zone 7, 12.5% reflectance would be in zone 6, and 6.25% reflectance would be in zone 5. Here is the inconsistency. Zone 5 is commonly said to correspond to 18% reflectance, but the 6.25% number we get by counting down from zone 9 is only about a third of 18%. Therefore, the zone system is not mathematically consistent.
My conclusion is that, while the zone system may be qualitatively/conceptually useful, it is not quantitatively correct.
I think it goes the other way, placing 18% at Zone 5 and then the rest above and below that. At both ends it all fits, because 90% and 100% reflectance for example record the same on film.
I think that's part of my problem. I am a scientist by training and profession.You're thinking too much. The whole point of the zone system was to minimize thinking... If you're a scientist, it may not have enough accuracy for you...
Alan, it works perfectly with the real 21 step system!
And, it is scientific.
PE
Thanks for the comment. starting at zone 5 does not solve the problem of logical inconsistency. If you assume 18% diffuse reflectance is so-called "middle gray" and place it in zone 5, then the first doubling of reflectance (i.e. one stop difference) puts you in zone 6 with 36% diffuse reflectance. Another doubling puts you in zone 7 with 72% diffuse reflectance. A third doubling puts you in zone 8 with 144% diffuse reflectance (a physical impossibility by the way). A fourth doubling puts you in zone 9 with with 288% diffuse reflectance (also a physical impossibility).I think it goes the other way, placing 18% at Zone 5 and then the rest above and below that. At both ends it all fits, because 90% and 100% reflectance for example record the same on film.
Yeah, it's easy to believe the hype on this one. It gets passed off as a super accurate system. And for those of us who are used to the averaging meters in our old cameras and maybe an incident reading, it is. But in reality its more practical than scientific in it's approach.I think that's part of my problem. I am a scientist by training and profession.
Yes, I agree it is basically an arbitrary standard, and that is one topic I wanted to discuss more or less as a separate though related issue.The 18% grey card isn't middle grey - unless you want it to be.
It is merely a really useful standard.
Do you have a write-up posted that explains the 21 step system and how/why it improves over the "conventional zone" system? (Or possibly a 'totally unbiased' suggestion of a book in which details of such a system may be found? I've been dragging my feet on ordering books authored by members on this site...)
- I've always just used the zone system as an approximate binning method to ballpark my shots into something that, in theory, should net me a usable negative to work with, and have barely bothered with really in-depth detailed usage of it, but "The more tools you know, the more options you have to work with" has always been a useful mindset.
Thanks for making that point, along with some points that I did include in quoting your post.The ... zone system was ... designed to get a wide range of tones captured onto film ....
And how do you meter a scene for gamma 0.82?
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