Yay, a "which camera should I get" question

[waynecrider]

How small does a AS Discovery pack down? The rail is pretty short and the extensions come in different sizes.

 

[dhosten]

I'm chiming in only because this has not been mentioned as yet, and may be a possible solution to what you are looking for.
It has been on my list of potential portable 4x5 cameras for some time, but am still using my Super Graphic, and now Sinar C, which meet my current 4x5 needs.

It is the TOHO FC-45X and I can't add anything to what Kerry Thalmann had to say about it.

Good luck.
David

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The Shen-Hao HZX will take a 90 on a flat board and can focus it to infinity with just the standard bellows, although you'll basically have no movements because the bellows are extremely compressed. Add in the bag bellows (a $100 accessory, and well worth it) and you can use a 75mm on a flat board. You might well be able to use shorter lenses than that, but I don't know as I never had anything wider than 75mm.

 

[Jim Jones]

Instead of replacing 4x5 cameras with different brands, I accumulate them. After half a century of that, side by side comparisons are convenient. For minimum weight, an Imba Ikeda (or Tachihara or other similar cameras) is the lightest and the prettiest. It handles lenses from 65 to 250mm on Linhof style flat boards. Its light weight is insignificant in a 14 pound kit with DS film holders, four lenses, and other accessories in a hard case with a tripod head mounted on it for low camera positions. For convenience a press camera is often the handiest, with Speed Graphic being the standard. The MPP or Linhof technical cameras are more versatile than the SG, and usually more expensive. Even late B&J press cameras have a few advantages. For decades an inexpensive B&J flatbed sufficed. It is bulky and heavy; more noticeable now than when bought 40 years ago. With press and field cameras available, I rarely use monorails outdoors. An important consideration for anyone contemplating several brands is interchangeability of lens boards. The move to proprietary boards from the once ubiquitous 4" boards is unfortunate. Mounting all lenses on Linhof boards and adapting other cameras to this size may be the most practical.

 

[Roger Cole]

The Tachihara can focus a 65mm on a flat board? The Shen HZX bellows is fully compressed with a 90 on a flat board?

I'm about to talk myself back into the Tach. It would be nice to be able to go even shorter than 65 for use with a rollfilm back, but one can't have everything in one camera.

How much trouble is swapping the bellows on the Shen, and what is the LONGEST lens that can focus (infinity I guess) with the bag? I'm wondering if it might be practical for me to just leave the bag on it. My longest lens currently is a 203 Ektar, though I'd like something longer, but I know anything longer will need the regular bellows (and probably the Ektar. I'm guessing maybe 150 or so is max with the bag?)

 

[Huub]

I got myself a Shen Hao HZXIIA a couple of months ago. It is a joy to use and easier adjusted then the Toyo 45A i prefiously owned. Much better focussing screen, much more and easier movements and a lot lighter. I especially like how the movements on the back work, which makes using tilt and shift there so much easier, compared to the Toyo. The disadvantage being that the Toyo is a more rigid and stable camera.

Then there is the bellows of the Shen Hao: even the standard bellows is very flexibel and i have no problems using my 58 SA XL on it on a flat lensboard and apply so much rise it runs out of coverage easely. I guess it will also take the 47 on a flat lensboard.

And swapping bellows is easy, tho i wouldn't know why i should want to swap it as the standard one takes all my lenses, from the 58 SA XL to my 360 Tele Xenar

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Roger- If memory serves, you can probably get a 210 to infinity with the bag on, but it's not a good idea, as the bag is likely to intrude into the lens' image circle because it lacks structure and is likely to sag. I should say the bellows are sufficiently compressed with a 90 that movements are highly restricted- but this is true of just about any field camera of similar design ($2000 Ebonys and Canham DLCs excepted). The bellows changing is easy - I would NOT leave the bag bellows permanently attached - they don't fold into the body well. To change the bellows on a Shen Hao, you loosen a clip on the rear of the front standard, then unscrew two screws (with big black knobs) on the rear standard, and out pops the bellows!

 

[Alan Gales]

The Tachihara can focus a 65mm on a flat board? The Shen HZX bellows is fully compressed with a 90 on a flat board?

Roger, when I purchased my camera, Tachihara recommended using a 90mm on a flat board and a 65mm in a recessed board. The 65 is the widest lens Tachihara recommended using.

I got into a discussion about this on the Large Format Photography Forum. I think it may have something to do with how old and supple your bellows are and how much movement you are looking for. After I purchased my Tachihara I picked up a 75mm lens and used it in a recessed board and it worked fine for me. Of course my bellows was new and stiff. The 75 proved to be too wide for my tastes so I switched to a 90 and use it on a flat board. Several people in the discussion used a 75mm on a flat board and one fellow claimed he used a 65mm on a flat board and still got enough movement for him.

If you are looking for lots of movement with wide lenses you might want to look for a camera which supports a bag bellows. One of the features that I really like with the Tachihara is using a 90mm on a flat board and not needing to swap bellows.

As you well know, there is no perfect camera. I't all about finding the one that works the best for you while still being affordable.

 

[Roger Cole]

Thanks all. The info about using a 58 on a flat board with movements on the HZXAII is intriguing.

I like the Chamonix but with several boxes of IR film in the freezer I'd like to use it!

 

[Alan Gales]

If I was buying new today I would take a hard look at the Chamonix. I haven't shot IR since my 35mm days though.

 

[winger]

I'm fairly sure I'm going to buy a new Chamonix. Though I'd love to shoot some IR, I don't have any and can likely come up with a temporary fix if I ever get some (and it's down to one or two versions anyway). Other than that, I haven't heard any reasons to not get one and I think any other differences are so small as to not matter. It comes highly rated by those who have them (and they rarely come up for sale used, so I'd believe those who have them want to keep them).
Thanks all for the input! I hope it all helps anyone else who finds this thread.

 

[Roger Cole]

The "easy" solution for an IR safe bellows for the Chamonix is the Shen bag, which fits it and IS IR safe. But it's only a bag bellows.

I also admit I like the look of the wood bed on the Shen better than the CF bed of the Chamonix, though I'm pretty sure the CF is probably actually better.

 

[Alan Gales]

The Chamonix is newer than the Tachihara and Shen Hao so there are not as many out there on the used market. I have seen a couple come up in the Large Format Photography Forum for sale section.

You are right that most people who own them seem to love them.

 

[Huub]

I will post a few snaps of the Shen Hao with the 58 on a flat board tomorrow, as it is both too late and too darkto take decent ones now.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Roger- the older Shen Haos anyway were made out of teak. They used teak for the decks of battleships, so I'm pretty sure it is durable enough to handle whatever you throw at it.

 

[Roger Cole]

Nothing wrong with wood, and real wood has a beauty of it's own. But CF can be more rigid for the same weight so if you're looking for a light camera it can have advantages.

 

[Huub]

These are the picture i promised yesterday. The first shows the Shen Hao with the 58 in focus, the second one with maximum rise applied. The maximu rise seems limited by the body of the camera, but a look at the gournd glass confirmed the lens ran out of coverage already. In the third I extended the bellows to show why it is flexible enough to use this lens on a flat lens board. The first 5 or 6 cm are much thinner then the rest of the bellows

 

[jeffreyg]

My Toyo 45A serves me well but if you might be looking for adventure I can recommend the Ilford Titan pinhole (4x5). Very light weight and great fun to use and is compatible with one of my lighter tripods. I've done pt/pd prints, silver gelatin and scans from the negatives. I just received the 150mm cone/pinhole and can't wait to try it. I know it doesn't replace a lens and movements or for that matter my Blads but it is a nice departure from lenses and focusing and with a light meter and several film holders fits in a fairly small backpack.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

View attachment 71288 View attachment 71289 View attachment 71290

These are the picture i promised yesterday. The first shows the Shen Hao with the 58 in focus, the second one with maximum rise applied. The maximu rise seems limited by the body of the camera, but a look at the gournd glass confirmed the lens ran out of coverage already. In the third I extended the bellows to show why it is flexible enough to use this lens on a flat lens board. The first 5 or 6 cm are much thinner then the rest of the bellows

That's a different bellows than was on my Shen-Hao. But I had an early production model - serial number was 3 digits, so the bellows was "traditional" in that it had the exact same pleating the entire length. Thus the requirement for using the bag bellows with wider than 90mm lenses.

 

[Roger Cole]

That's a different bellows than was on my Shen-Hao. But I had an early production model - serial number was 3 digits, so the bellows was "traditional" in that it had the exact same pleating the entire length. Thus the requirement for using the bag bellows with wider than 90mm lenses.

Yeah, they've gone to this "universal" bellows fairly recently. Looks a bit...unusual, but from the photos it seems to provide a real advantage.

 

[waynecrider]

I'm fairly sure I'm going to buy a new Chamonix. Though I'd love to shoot some IR, I don't have any and can likely come up with a temporary fix if I ever get some (and it's down to one or two versions anyway). Other than that, I haven't heard any reasons to not get one and I think any other differences are so small as to not matter. It comes highly rated by those who have them (and they rarely come up for sale used, so I'd believe those who have them want to keep them).
Thanks all for the input! I hope it all helps anyone else who finds this thread.

You could always put up a WTB over at LFPF. There's always someone leaving the format.

 

[jimgalli]

I've had them all. The Chamonix was the final solution for me. I'll probably die with that camera. I do keep a Speedy around for the zippy focal plane shutter though.

 

[winger]

I've had them all. The Chamonix was the final solution for me. I'll probably die with that camera. I do keep a Speedy around for the zippy focal plane shutter though.

I'll take that as a pretty high recommendation considering the source. Thanks! And my Speed with its lens from binoculars has its place, too.

 

[Doc W]

I am probably starting to sound like a broken record, but given the cameras with which you are already familiar, have you considered a Super Graphic? It is not the same camera as a Speed or Crown (even thought there is a model called "Super Speed"). Although it has no rear movements, it has more than enough front movements for the needs you describe, including front tilt (forward and backward), swing, shift, and rise. It also has the drop bed feature, same as Speeds and Crowns, and the Super also has a rotatable back. It folds up the same as the others and it has an indestructible metal body. You can get a good one for under $500. I used one for ages.

 

[Zelph]

Nothing is as rugged as a Linhof Technika. Solid brick when folded so even the baggage handling gorillas can't break it. Works well in the field as so many solid Pro shooters have shown us over the decades.