XTOL failure

[Melvin J Bramley]

the last two rolls of 35mm Tri X I have developed, Xtol, have come out underdeveloped; faint to no edge markings.
The film was developed with continuous agitation 1:1 for 10 mins at 20Deg C.
Whilst the film is old the Xtol has only been mixed for 10 weeks and stored in brown glass bottles.
Has anyone else had Xtol failure ?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use replenished XTOL, but I always test the developer on a 35mm film tongue first. I also store XTOL in StopLossBagsTM from www.stoplossbags.com and use their funnel to avoid spills. Those bags allow me to squeeze out all the air. I have stored replenished XTOL successfully for over two years.

 

[retina_restoration]

Ten weeks can be pushing the limits of survivability for Xtol, in my experience.
Its stability depends on which era of manufacture yours came from. If it’s older Xtol from the Sino Promise period, it’s of questionable quality. I bought Xtol from that time and it failed to deliver good negs even when fresh. Kodak refunded/replaced a lot of Xtol from that time. I’ve never bought it since - I now make Mytol at home, or buy the Adox version.

 

[Kino]

the last two rolls of 35mm Tri X I have developed, Xtol, have come out underdeveloped; faint to no edge markings.
The film was developed with continuous agitation 1:1 for 10 mins at 20Deg C.
Whilst the film is old the Xtol has only been mixed for 10 weeks and stored in brown glass bottles.
Has anyone else had Xtol failure ?

Diluted 1:1 just before processing?

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Diluted 1:1 just before processing?

I always dilute just before processing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Ten weeks can be pushing the limits of survivability for Xtol, in my experience.

That is why I use the StopLossBagsTM.

 

[runswithsizzers]

How is your water quality? Some say too much iron in the water can overpower the chelating agent which Kodak uses. I always use distilled/deionized water to make up the stock solution and for diluting.

On the other hand, hasn't there been some recent threads suggesting that perhaps Xtol may be producing thinner images for some people?

Fresh XTOL from PSI and thin Negatives

After all the back and forth from and with Tetenal, I used up my old XTOL packs until 2020 in order to then use Mörsch chemistry exclusively. A test of the new US XTOL batch with a TX400 35mm film amazed me because the film did not reach its sensitivity or maximum density. I haven't tested...

www.photrio.com

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...oped-in-1-1-xtol-came-out-really-thin.210624/ - This one sounds like user error?

The only time Xtol has produced thin negatives for me was several years ago -- also with Fuji Acros -- but that batch of Xtol was recalled by Kodak Alaris/Sino Promise, so discovered to be a problem.

I have a bag of the newer Xtol from Photo Systems, so I hope it is OK.

I have started doing a quick test with a piece cut off from the leader to make sure the developer is active before I develop the whole roll. However, my test just proves there is some activity, and does not prove full activity, so I may get burned yet.

 

[Kino]

I always dilute just before processing.

Just clarifying; I assumed you did, but wanted to be sure.

I have some stock XTOL that was mixed 2/5/2023 I have been using on and off with success, but it's been about 6 months since I tested it.

I will try to test it soon and get back to you. But for the present, I used over a year old XTOL without a problem and it was stored in brown glass bottles as well.

I always do the paper test prior to planning to use this developer...

Edit: Oh, and I exclusively use distilled water in mixing the stock and when diluting the developer.

 

[Sirius Glass]

How is your water quality? Some say too much iron in the water can overpower the chelating agent which Kodak uses. I always use distilled/deionized water to make up the stock solution and for diluting.

On the other hand, wasn't there a recent thread that perhaps Xtol may be producing thinner images for some people?
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...oped-in-1-1-xtol-came-out-really-thin.210624/

The only time Xtol has produced thin negatives for me was several years ago -- also with Fuji Acros -- but that batch of Xtol was recalled by Kodak Alaris, so known to be a problem.

I have a bag of the newer Xtol from Photo Systems, so I hope it is OK.

I have started doing a quick test with a piece cut off from the leader to make sure the developer is active before I develop the whole roll. However, my test just proves there is some activity, and does not prove full activity, so I may get burned yet.

I found that for me, Ilford films needed one minute added to the 20 degree C time and then adjusted for temperature.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I found that for me, Ilford films needed one minute added to the 20 degree C time and then adjusted for temperature.

It would seem that Tri X in Xtol requires a 33% increase in published developing time!
I admit to mixing at way over 30 deg C , which some suggest is a killer!
Damn, I have 3.5 liters of this stuff left!!!
I'm going to try it in Rodinal and compare the results.
At least Rodinal lasts forever.
I cannot re do my last failed Tri X project as it was on vacation in Mexico.
I should have taken Delta 100!

 

[MattKing]

Do you still have the packaging?
In and around Sino Promise' involvement, there was some quality issues.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Do you still have the packaging?
In and around Sino Promise' involvement, there was some quality issues.

I don't have the old packaging.
It was purchased last December from Camera Traders and, I just checked the bottles, mixed January the 18th.
Before my Xtol purchase I had a 5 ltr mix of ID11 which performed as it should until the mix was finished.
Frustratingly I first tried the original Xtol and due to my on again off again darkroom sessions I split it, by weight, into five one liter mixes.
The results worked very well and I had no waste.
I am considering buying bulk and mixing on demand!

 

[John Wiegerink]

It would seem that Tri X in Xtol requires a 33% increase in published developing time!
I admit to mixing at way over 30 deg C , which some suggest is a killer!
Damn, I have 3.5 liters of this stuff left!!!
I'm going to try it in Rodinal and compare the results.
At least Rodinal lasts forever.
I cannot re do my last failed Tri X project as it was on vacation in Mexico.
I should have taken Delta 100!

You have Rodinal! Heck, just throw 1/2 to 3/4oz. of Rodinal into that 3.5 liters of Xtol and your problem is solved.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I agree with John.
And... that is why clip tests are so important.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I agree with John.
And... that is why clip tests are so important.

Andy,
I was kind of joking, but there are folks here that do use Rodinal mixed with Xtol. Wait, or was it Xtol mixed with Rodinal??? I only made the suggestion as a way not to have to dump your Xtol.
I have never really had a problem with Xtol, but I did switch to Adox XT-3 (Xtol clone) simply because I could get it when I couldn't get Xtol. That said, I like XT-3 a little better for two reasons, 1. it mixes much easier. 2. you can get it in a 1L size and 5L size.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andy,
I was kind of joking, but there are folks here that do use Rodinal mixed with Xtol. Wait, or was it Xtol mixed with Rodinal??? I only made the suggestion as a way not to have to dump your Xtol.
I have never really had a problem with Xtol, but I did switch to Adox XT-3 (Xtol clone) simply because I could get it when I couldn't get Xtol. That said, I like XT-3 a little better for two reasons, 1. it mixes much easier. 2. you can get it in a 1L size and 5L size.

I used to mix in 10ml of Rodinal stock to 500ml of XTol working solution, years ago. It was just enough to give a bit of a punch, especially in the high lights, especially with HP5 and D100. I have curves somewhere, which shows HP5 with a slightly up swept curve.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I used to mix in 10ml of Rodinal stock to 500ml of XTol working solution, years ago. It was just enough to give a bit of a punch, especially in the high lights, especially with HP5 and D100. I have curves somewhere, which shows HP5 with a slightly up swept curve.

Ah, you're one of the guilty parties! 30 lashes with a wet noodle is in order, along with no for a month. Actually, if it works, then use it.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

 

[mshchem]

Do you have faith in your thermometer? Of course this would only apply if you were in a cool darkroom. The underdeveloped edge markings would indicate something afoul with the development. I use XTOL stock, in Jobo setups never have had problems with storing the stock solution.

 

[mshchem]

Try intensifying with selenium toner or chromium intensifier.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Do you still have the packaging?
In and around Sino Promise' involvement, there was some quality issues.

I have only used the Kodak flavor of XTOL, so I cannot comment on Sino Promise's quality.

 

[MattKing]

I have only used the Kodak flavor of XTOL, so I cannot comment on Sino Promise's quality.

All your XTol was purchased before 2012?
All XTol before than was Eastman Kodak, although by that time they had stopped doing the manufacture themselves.
After the bankruptcy in 2012, it was Kodak Alaris, but of course they too weren't doing the manufacturing.
When Tetenal went bankrupt, Kodak Alaris had to scramble to replace many of the chemical manufacturers. For a while, it was probably Photo Systems ("PhotoSys"), but there were several problems.
In 2020, Kodak Alaris sold the license for the Kodak photochemical (for still film) business to Sino Promise. It is unclear if Sino Promise ever took over manufacture of XTol.
Covid drove Sino Promise into bankruptcy.
On September 1, 2023, Eastman Kodak licensed the Kodak name again for still film photochemicals - this time to PhotoSys, who are the current source.
Throughout this journey, XTol has always been Kodak "flavoured".

 

[miha]

Has anyone else had Xtol failure ?

Oh yes, I was one of the earliest 'victims' from the time of one-liter bags.

 

[warden]

All your XTol was purchased before 2012?
All XTol before than was Eastman Kodak, although by that time they had stopped doing the manufacture themselves.
After the bankruptcy in 2012, it was Kodak Alaris, but of course they too weren't doing the manufacturing.
When Tetenal went bankrupt, Kodak Alaris had to scramble to replace many of the chemical manufacturers. For a while, it was probably Photo Systems ("PhotoSys"), but there were several problems.
In 2020, Kodak Alaris sold the license for the Kodak photochemical (for still film) business to Sino Promise. It is unclear if Sino Promise ever took over manufacture of XTol.
Covid drove Sino Promise into bankruptcy.
On September 1, 2023, Eastman Kodak licensed the Kodak name again for still film photochemicals - this time to PhotoSys, who are the current source.
Throughout this journey, XTol has always been Kodak "flavoured".

Matt do you know if Ilford went through a similar merry-go-round of supplier issues during this timeframe? Your description of these supplier/quality issues (which are not Kodak's fault entirely but of course damage customer confidence since their name is on the package) and my personal repeated issues with Xtol are the reasons I switched to Ilford chemistry, but perhaps they have had similar struggles that I don't know about.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have only used the Kodak flavor of XTOL, so I cannot comment on Sino Promise's quality.

All your XTol was purchased before 2012?
All XTol before than was Eastman Kodak, although by that time they had stopped doing the manufacture themselves.
After the bankruptcy in 2012, it was Kodak Alaris, but of course they too weren't doing the manufacturing.
When Tetenal went bankrupt, Kodak Alaris had to scramble to replace many of the chemical manufacturers. For a while, it was probably Photo Systems ("PhotoSys"), but there were several problems.
In 2020, Kodak Alaris sold the license for the Kodak photochemical (for still film) business to Sino Promise. It is unclear if Sino Promise ever took over manufacture of XTol.
Covid drove Sino Promise into bankruptcy.
On September 1, 2023, Eastman Kodak licensed the Kodak name again for still film photochemicals - this time to PhotoSys, who are the current source.
Throughout this journey, XTol has always been Kodak "flavoured".

That gives some incite into how old my replenished XTOL is. I still have some unopened bags if XTOL from Kodak left. Also that gives credence to the effectivity and effectiveness of the StopLossBagsTM that I recommend.