Want to Buy WTB: Leica M4-P (or possibly M6)

[Huss]

Hey, ixnay on the Camera West thing. I don't need the additional competition

Don't think of it as competition - think of it as it's a good thing someone else bought that so you didn't have to be tempted!

p.s. that .85 MP for $3900 re-appeared, then was sold same day. Wonder what that story was? (maybe the buyer wanted to use a 28mm lens and didn't realize it was a .85?)

 

[logan2z]

Don't think of it as competition - think of it as it's a good thing someone else bought that so you didn't have to be tempted!

p.s. that .85 MP for $3900 re-appeared, then was sold same day. Wonder what that story was? (maybe the buyer wanted to use a 28mm lens and didn't realize it was a .85?)

I seem to be tempted a lot lately. The M3 for $2495 was on my radar but I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger at that price. I was relieved when it finally showed 'out of stock'.

Re: the MP, that could have been it. Whoever ended up with it got a great deal.

 

[NB23]

Zinc M4-P: flush windows

Brass M4-P: recessed windows

 

[beemermark]

The Leica M4-P is superior to every Leica that came before it. It has a hot shoe and the modern, full set of frame lines. It is lighter weight and stronger, more durable and is simply better looking than all of its predecessors. It is a an excellent choice and the M6 is the same thing with a very convenient and accurate built in light meter. If you have the means, don't settle for anything less.

You're correct of course, the additional frame lines you'll never need and the very flare prone view finder can't be topped. And the zinc top is certainly stronger than the brass ones on the M4 and earlier models. It certainly does look better until the black paint wears off and shows the dull colored zinc underneath. And those steel gears are much smoother than the previous bronze gears. And who could ever live with out a flash.

 

[NB23]

There is a warmth and stickiness to brass that makes it a unique, almost luxurious choice.
Aluminum, zinc, magnesium (...) don’t come close. Brass is unmistakable.

 

[NB23]

Oh! A Brass top plate guarantees you a few things that Zinc cannot!

I agree that if you closed your eyes you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference wether the taxi that’s driving you is a Mercedes or a Yaris. But on the longer run, you would end up knowing because of all the little things.

There is definitely a difference of warmth under the fingers with Brass.
And on the long run (or short, if you are like me), you will drop you camera a few times. I’m not happy to say that I’ve dropped ALL my cameras, some more than a few times. Dropping a Brass camera will result in a soft dent, a slight dent. A Zinc camera, there’s the risk of the plate cracking, even at the repairing stage. There used to be pics of cracked M6 floating aroung, maybe you can find them.

Sure, I hear you say that this is a bullshit “what if” example. But we DO rely 100% on our car’s Airbags based on what-ifs. Although 99.999999% of cars end up with their airbags never deployed, you want them to be included in your car. So this is that; Brass is a better shock absorber, and you want that in your camera, even if you will never drop it, you want it to be made of a material that can take the hit. Sure, Zinc is a wonderful shock absorber but until a certain point.

Also, Zinc cannot be painted, brass can. This says a lot about the property of a given metal. Warmth to the touch is one. Different conductivity. Energy circulation is not Black magic, and Conductivity is special. I am sensible to those things: I feel my own energy flow through my camera. I am also extremey sensible to how a shutter feels, any millisecond lag, I feel it. I’m like that.

Let’s not forget that zinc was a cost-cutting measure. So there is that: cheaper.

And let’s not forget: Brass guaranteed you that you will never risk your camera to become ugly corroded. Sure, these things never happen to us, but if your camera had it you would hate it every minute of every day. So here we have yet again a TANGIBLE DIFFERENCE of Brass versus zinc.

All the above are tangible differences. You might not appreciate them, but they are definitely not bullshit, nor internet fairytale.

I guess this begs the real question: do you really WANT your car, or any car you hop into, to come without airbags? To this question many people will answer Yes, as crazy as it is. But then, why would they WANT their car to expressely not have airbags?
Same for Zinc, why would anyone WANT a Zinc top plate over a Brass top plate? Like “I want a Zinc Leica because the letter Z brings me luck” or something?

Or “Sure, Brass has many advantages as enumerated above, but Zinc is my lucky word”...

@NB23 If the internet didn't sell you this fairy tale, you wouldn't even know what brass is, and what kind of metal is something is made of. Brass doesn't make any sense for a non-moving part like a top plate! Even the weight delta is comparable to a UV filter. There's zero tangible difference between M6 and M7. Sorry, but today I am in "strict logic, no BS" mode.

 

[Huss]

I do prefer my black chrome cameras over my shiny black paint MP. It's just too shiny, and you can see the paint is designed to wear (Leica even mentions this).
The black chrome just looks purposeful and unpretentious. Interestingly, many brass cameras have black paint - Nikon F, F2, F3 (not the Ti ones) - but Nikon did not make the paint super shiny, nor did they make it easy to wear.
Yes it will eventually wear, but after really extended use.

Do I have a point? No. To the OP - just get the best shape M camera that has 28mm frame lines that you can afford. They all are sweet to use.

 

[adelorenzo]

Again maybe this thread is kind of off track but I do appreciate all the discussion here.

I started shooting film about 10 years ago and I've tried many cameras over the years. I have always heard so much about Leica cameras but I've never used one, touched one or even seen one in person. So I really just want to find out for myself what it's all about.

Maybe it's the ultimate camera and I will sell every other camera I own. Maybe it's all just hype or I hate it. Fine, I can probably just sell it for what I paid. But after hearing so much about them I really want to try one.

 

[Huss]

Zinc M4-P: flush windows

Brass M4-P: recessed windows

View attachment 287198 View attachment 287199

Very interesting! Wonder why the change in form. Assumption is it would be cheaper to make a flat piece than the more useful recessed piece that helps prevent smudges.
The later brass M7, MP have the flat format.

 

[Huss]

Again maybe this thread is kind of off track but I do appreciate all the discussion here.

I started shooting film about 10 years ago and I've tried many cameras over the years. I have always heard so much about Leica cameras but I've never used one, touched one or even seen one in person. So I really just want to find out for myself what it's all about.

Maybe it's the ultimate camera and I will sell every other camera I own. Maybe it's all just hype or I hate it. Fine, I can probably just sell it for what I paid. But after hearing so much about them I really want to try one.

If you have been used to using an SLR type camera, it does take a while to get used to an RF camera. So be patient and do plenty of practice dry shooting (no film) just to get the hang of it.
I find RF cameras much easier to focus with 35mm and wider lenses than SLRs. At 50mm they are equal to SLRs. Over 50mm SLRs are much easier to focus. Get an AF SLR and all bets are off!

 

[BradS]

.... but I've never used one, touched one or even seen one in person. So I really just want to find out for myself what it's all about...

That's exactly what led me to buy one too. I quickly realized that all of the ridiculous mythology is exactly that...myth and marketing hype.
Try not to get sucked into the cult. We need more intelligent and rational Leica users and fewer moronic cult members.

 

[Huss]

BradS seems to be a bit edgy. Perhaps his flaring viewfinder has caused that?

 

[BradS]

Just for fun....
Who can tell me what alloy the top cover is made of on the camera that made this photo?
Which lens was used? (hint: it was a 50mm)

 

[Huss]

Just for fun....
Who can tell me what alloy the top cover is made of on the camera that made this photo?
Which lens was used? (hint: it was a 50mm)


Coffee time by Brad S, on Flickr

So why did you buy a Leica? For this? Erm, enjoy being part of the moronic cult!

 

[NB23]

Starbuck’s mug... hmmm... low standards...

You seem to make a big case (and maybe moronic to some) about your “Bialetti Moka Express” and the “MSR Whisperlite liquid fuel backpacker stove”

Sounds almost like you’re a moronic cult member.

Just for fun....
Who can tell me what alloy the top cover is made of on the camera that made this photo?
Which lens was used? (hint: it was a 50mm)


Coffee time by Brad S, on Flickr

 

[Huss]

A Leica M is an expensive camera. There are lots of other cameras out there that can take photos just as well. So the rationale of buying an M is how it feels in hand, how it gives you pleasure in using it to create pics. I am lucky to have a lot of cameras, and, for example, my Nikon F6 is a much better camera than my M4-2. On paper. But I really don't get any enjoyment out of using it, while there is just something so satisfying and pleasurable about using the M that I always want it with me, and always want to take pics with it.
Now back to the "moronic cult" turn of phrase. We have determined that there are lot of cameras cheap and expensive out there that can be used to make equally impressive or poor pics. You don't need to spend more than $30 for that. So one can argue that ANYONE buying a Leica is in that moronic cult. So, we all agree we are in the cult. We all are buying, or have bought, a bloody expensive camera. That on paper makes no sense as it is just a light tight box.
And yet, there are some - mentioning no names but rhymes with BradS - that have determined that only specific members of this moronic cult are the morons - because they spend time on parsing out the differences between models. Think about that for a sec - you are already committed (!) to spending thousands of dollars - but the issue arises when you decide to then figure out the differences and what would be the best purchase for yourself. The M4-p - excellent camera as it is a Leica after all - is actually MORE expensive than an M4, or M2. Yet someone who picks an M4 - for whatever reason they decide - is the super moron in this moronic cult.
The smart thing to do IS figure out all the differences between these cameras. Why one is made one way, why one is made another way. Why one may or may not appeal more to you. Because you are after all are going to be paying a crap tonne of money , and so better be sure the one you have picked is the one you will be happiest with!

 

[NB23]

That moment when you get outsmarted by a guy who tells you that porcelain is the same as Calacatta marble... and you can’t argue because indeed they look the same... from far... lol...

 

[guangong]

Those too young, may not realize the impact of the Leica M3 on the camera market. In an odd way it stimulated the development of the 35mm SLR. With far superior handling, viewfinder frames, bayonet mount, and other attributes, Zeiss, Nikon, Canon, etc. simply were not able to compete and withdrew from the rf camera market. On the other hand, Leitz was sluggish entering the SLR market. For people to deny this fact and to attribute preferring a Leica to snobbishness is a decision based upon ignorance and inexperience.
There is just something about the layout of controls, the feel of the instrument in the hand. M3 through M5 were made by Leitz. Thereafter ownership of the brand name passed from on entity to another. I do not doubt or deny that current Leica cameras are marketed not as a product for the amateur or professional, but rather as a prestige item, a kind of jewelry.
About 28mm. I have finders for 28, 21, and even wider. Never found external finders for these lenses to present any difficulty since depth of field doesn’t require continually refocusing when in practical use. I do admit that 35mm Summicron with googles works better for me than a 35mm finder on M3.
The rf cameras built by Leitz are quite robust. I have been using mine since late 1960s-1970s. As I noted earlier, when M6 was introduced, I was not impressed with quality of viewfinder, compared with earlier M cameras.
Nonetheless, selection of a camera is a personal choice. So pick whatever suits you.
I have several Contax rf cameras, and I enjoy shooting them on occasion. But viewfinder and bayonet mount falls far short of a Leica M