Want to Buy WTB: Leica M4-P (or possibly M6)

[adelorenzo]

Looking for an M4-P. Don't care how it looks as long as it is in good working order. Shipped to Canada.

I am looking to shoot 28mm so would also consider an M6 if the price is right.

 

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[beemermark]

So the M4-P is a a re-introduced M4 with cheaper construction and a view finder that flares horrible combined with cheaper construction. Now if the M4-P was way cheaper it might make sense, but the M4-P is selling for way more ????. The M6 is the same cheap camera that has an inferior meter.

 

[guangong]

So the M4-P is a a re-introduced M4 with cheaper construction and a view finder that flares horrible combined with cheaper construction. Now if the M4-P was way cheaper it might make sense, but the M4-P is selling for way more ????. The M6 is the same cheap camera that has an inferior meter.

Ditto. For better build quality I would recommend M4 or M3. If an on board through the lens meter is required, my wife was very happy with her M5, although lacking the same feel. This was the last M made by Leitz. I was assured by DAG that any used M5 for sale now has had the sometimes faulty spinal replaced. Also, certain Voightlander wide angle lenses can be used on M5.
Years ago I looked through a new M6 viewfinder at Ken Hansen’s, and felt it was not up to that of my M4’s. Also, I find diodes to be a PITA.

 

[BradS]

The Leica M4-P is superior to every Leica that came before it. It has a hot shoe and the modern, full set of frame lines. It is lighter weight and stronger, more durable and is simply better looking than all of its predecessors. It is a an excellent choice and the M6 is the same thing with a very convenient and accurate built in light meter. If you have the means, don't settle for anything less.

 

[Huss]

I have an M4-2, which turned into the M4-P when Leica added the 28mm frame lines.
As for it being superior to every Leica before it? Well no Leica before it had a RF patch that flared, had the flash sockets that are mounted in plastic so they snap off if you snag them on something, nor had the script stamped instead of engraved.
After the first time my sync sockets snapped off because they got snagged onto my sweater (!), I made sure to never use the cover caps on them again. As that is what can cause snagging.
Once Leica got to the later M4-2s and then the M4-P they switched to zinc covers instead of brass. Purely as cost cutting. Later when the MP was introduced replacing the prior models, Leica switched back to brass.

But here's the thing. I love using my M4-2, even though I have 'better built' Ms. The M4-2, -P, 6 all STILL feel fantastic in hand and to take pics with. The flare IS a real issue, but mine was minimized by Youxin Ye who applied a coating to the view finder. The flare can still occur, but is much better than before.

M6s have really shot up in price, as have the M4-2/P series. I've seen some M6s just a few hundred dollars less than an MP. The smart thing to do then is get the MP.
The M4 IS a mechanically superior camera to the M4-P, but if you want 28mm frame lines it rules it out. And that is really what it comes down to - if you want 28mm frame lines you are looking at the M4-P, M6, MP, MA, M7.
My M5 has the MP frame set, which means it has the 28mm lines. It also has a built in meter, so that is an option and a whole different set of arguments!

 

[adelorenzo]

Appreciate the advice and opinions everyone as this is my first foray into Leica.

28mm is my preferred focal length so that does definitely limit my options. An MP would be amazing but they seem to be on a whole different tier for pricing.

 

[BradS]

When you look through the viewfinder of an M4-P or M6, for example, with a 28mm lens mounted, what you discover is that the frame lines encompase the entire viewfinder. Thus, if using an earlier M4 or M2, for example, without 28mm framelines, one can simple use the whole viewfinder for framing....if that makes sense.

 

[logan2z]

28mm is my preferred focal length so that does definitely limit my options.

You could always use an external 28mm viewfinder on a camera without a 28mm frameline. I use one with my M4 when shooting with a 28mm and it works well. It does mean focusing with the in-camera viewfinder and composing with the external finder, so that could be a bit of a nuisance if you're almost always shooting with a 28.

 

[Huss]

Appreciate the advice and opinions everyone as this is my first foray into Leica.

28mm is my preferred focal length so that does definitely limit my options. An MP would be amazing but they seem to be on a whole different tier for pricing.

28mm and "affordable" = M4-P.

I mentioned MP because I have seen a few under $4K, and a few M6 (tends to be the TTL models) at $3300-$3500..

What is your price range, if you don't mind me asking? One camera that maybe you can consider is the M-A. It is the meterless version of the MP. Comes with 28mm frame lines and is the most recent Leica model.
Basically you'd be buying a new/used camera with an M-A, while any M6, M4-P etc can be decades old.
I've seen the M-A going for $3500-$3700

 

[Huss]

Behold, I give you the Uber-Leica-Snob.
They never fail to trot out same old tired lines of bullshit.
This Leica is better than that Leica because of the perception that this one cost much more to manufacture...nauseating and embarrassing.
It is like a religious zealot repeating the dogma.
Pass the red dot Kool-Aide!

Or... you could ask yourself why did Leica start making cameras out of zinc with cheapened RFs that DO flare, sync ports mounted in plastic? etc etc.

I have actual real experience with them. Currently owning/using these models so I'm pretty much unbiased as it is, especially because I said they still all are great to use! But I am not going to have a blinkered fan-boi view of them.

Here's one - the MP (which Leica touts as Mechanical Perfection) has a really crappy plastic frame counter that fails. Mine did. And DAG went off as to what junk those parts are when he fixed mine! But at least that was the only junky part!

Leica's no holds barred use the best mfg methods and materials available ended after the M5. Because they could no longer afford to make cameras like that.

 

[BradS]

Appreciate the advice and opinions everyone as this is my first foray into Leica.

28mm is my preferred focal length so that does definitely limit my options....

a couple of hints:
- These cameras (M6, M4-P, M4-2, M4, etc...) are all OLD now. The condition of the individual will be far more important than any differences between the models.

- Try to ignore the loathsome marketing hype and mindless romanticism. The Leica is NOT superior to anything. It is just a camera that cost stupid money. They're nice and if skillfully used, are capable of producing nice results but other than the outrageous price of entry, they are nothing special. Any of the top Japanese brands (Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Canon) are similarly capable.

- Get your hands on a Leica M film camera. It does not really matter which model. Hold it in your hands. Try it. See if the ergonomics actually work for you.

- Get an M6 and flip the little lever to bring up the 28mm frame lines - you will see that they encompass the entire view finder. The implication is that on one of the earlier models (eg, M4, M2 but not the M3 which should be avoided anyway) the entire view finder area can be used for framing with the 28mm lens.

- Zinc Alloy has superior mechanical properties compared to brass. There are many very good engineering reasons that virtually every camera mfgr switched from brass to various modern alloys of zinc, aluminum and magnesium once those alloys became feasible. Just like the Japanese, Leica tried to improve with each successive generation but the Uber-Leica-Snobs do not want improvements in engineering and technology. Leica snobs want expensive jewelry that they can brag about.

 

[BradS]

Or... you could ask yourself why did Leica start making cameras out of zinc with cheapened RFs that DO flare, sync ports mounted in plastic? etc etc.

I have actual real experience with them...

It is zinc ALLOY - not zinc. Pure zinc would (as any boat own knows) be a serious problem to say the least. Leica switched to a modern alloy for the same reasons that every other camera manufacturer did - because of its superior mechanical properties. Only Uber-Leica-Snobs, fixated on a perceived reduced manufacturing cost, whine about the usage of mechanically superior modern alloys.

I too have actual ownership, hands on experience with the M4-P, M6, M2 and even an M5 (and a iiif). They're all nice cameras that get the job done but, other than the price of entry and the embarrassing, loathsome and nauseating marketing hype, they are nothing special. Leica are no better than the best Japanese brands....just different. All of them are equally capable of producing fine results and crap. It's not the camera but the human holding it that makes the difference.

 

[BradS]

.... Leica ... could no longer afford to make cameras like that.

It is interesting then to recognize that Leica are (arguably) the only company still manufacturing non-toy, miniature format, film cameras. I do give Leica credit and a tip of hat for being the first and apparently, the last.

 

[logan2z]

- Get your hands on a Leica M film camera. It does not really matter which model. Hold it in your hands. Try it. See if the ergonomics actually work for you.

This is good advice.

As Brad pointed out, you can shoot equally good/bad pictures with a Leica, Nikon, Canon, etc. But, for me, I prefer using rangefinders over SLRs (although I own both) and prefer the haptics of the Leica M over the SLRs I've tried. The Leica just feels really good in my hands and that's what makes it special to me - not the materials used for the gears, top plate, etc. That said, if I were you, I'd probably skip the M6, only because prices have gone through the roof (pushing $4K!) and I think you can get an equally good (if not arguably better) M camera for far less. Yeah, you'll have to forego the meter and use the complete viewfinder to approximate the 28mm field of view or use an external viewfinder, but you'll have a really nice M film camera for 1/2 the price of the M6.

 

[Huss]

It is interesting then to recognize that Leica are (arguably) the only company still manufacturing non-toy, miniature format, film cameras. I do give Leica credit and a tip of hat for being the first and apparently, the last.

They obviously have done something right given the fact that not only are they the last man standing, but the fact that their gear is in demand both old and new.

 

[Huss]

p.s. your odds of getting an M are a lot greater if you offer more than $10...

;P

 

[NB23]

Brass top M4-P is an excellent camera! Better than any M6!
Steel gears, crazy tough.

No question, a GREAT piece if equipment.

 

[Huss]

How do you get a brass top M4-P? AFAIK the only brass top M4- cameras were the early edition M4-2s. And the M4-2 came before the P.

 

[Huss]

ps if you want plastic gears, look inside a Bessa R series, or Zeiss Ikon ZM. And it matters, because I've had the film drive line on a Bessa and Ikon ZM fail on me.

 

[btaylor]

p.s. your odds of getting an M are a lot greater if you offer more than $10...

;P

I think Eli called it an “ask,” something different (?) from an “offer?” Either way I get my panties in a bunch every time it gets bumped!!!

I do very much love my M2- I’ll have to get a 28mm and try the whole viewfinder thing.

 

[NB23]

How do you get a brass top M4-P? AFAIK the only brass top M4- cameras were the early edition M4-2s. And the M4-2 came before the P.

the first M4-P that came up in a ebay search is a brass top. They are not rare.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-LEIT...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Actually, the first 9 M4-P out of 10, are Brass. Took me ten seconds.

Seems to me you’ve been living with erroneous knowledge about the M4-P cameras all along

 

[NB23]

How do you get a brass top M4-P? AFAIK the only brass top M4- cameras were the early edition M4-2s. And the M4-2 came before the P.

All M4-2 are brass, and only the end of M4-P production is Zinc.

 

[Huss]

the first M4-P that came up in a ebay search is a brass top. They are not rare.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-LEIT...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Actually, the first 9 M4-P out of 10, are Brass. Took me ten seconds.

Seems to me you’ve been living with erroneous knowledge about the M4-P cameras all along

I clicked on the link. How can you tell it is brass?.

Perhaps I am living with erroneous knowledge, but I find comfort in the fact that my M7s are not broken. ;P

p.s. BradS - I do now apologize for this has indeed sunk into the realm of gear fetish..

 

[Huss]

Lorenzo - put yourself on the camerawest.com mailing list. They have had excellent prices on M gear in the past, you'll be notified when new stock comes in, and you will have a hassle free customer service experience.

 

[logan2z]

Lorenzo - put yourself on the camerawest.com mailing list. They have had excellent prices on M gear in the past, you'll be notified when new stock comes in, and you will have a hassle free customer service experience.

Hey, ixnay on the Camera West thing. I don't need the additional competition