Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

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Would you buy & use a modern Autochrome-type film?

  • Yeah, probably.

    Votes: 57 67.9%
  • Probably not.

    Votes: 6 7.1%
  • Would have to see the results first.

    Votes: 21 25.0%

  • Total voters
    84
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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Autochrome.
Grains are from 5-10 microns, 1700-2500 grains per linear inch

Dufaycolor.
Spacing of red lines = 533 lines per inch.

Finlay.
240 filter squares per square inch

Thames Screen Plate.
Each circle was 1/400 of an inch wide

From Wikipedia, Additive film (such as Polavision and Polachrome slide film) used a colour mask of microscopically thin transparent red, green, and blue lines (3000 lines per inch)

A significant improvement over the previous methods.

Elsewhere, "Polachrome"...has a color filter screen consisting of red, green and blue stripes with a resolution of 118 stripes/mm. All of these films are described in a publication "The Polaroid 35 mm Instant Slide System" by Samuel H. Liggero, Kenneth J. McCarthy and Joseph A. Stella.
 

M.A.Longmore

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No potato starches, nothing primitive like that. Note that I said Autochrome-like... all I mean by that is a red, green & blue screen. Though I do like the gem stones idea! How 'bout ruby, sapphire and emerald? That will be reserved for the professional line.

Reading J.S. Friedman's History of Color Photography and the chapter on formation of screen-plates will give you some idea of the innumerable ways people have proposed to do this before. And then there's E.J. Wall's History of Three-Colour Photography...

All I'll say at present is that it's a "classic" method, though never used in a product as far as I know. :wink:

I personally have no interest in an inkjet screen, but I'd support anyone working on that.


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I Have A 355 Carat Sapphire, Just Sitting Here Doing Nothing ...

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Oh, yes, that would be fantastic.

It is indeed years that I'm trying to devise a method to create a home-made Autochrome plate.
 

newcan1

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And what is wrong with potato starch? And could inkjet water soluble ink be used to dye such starch?
 

newcan1

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Well they would stay put if the starch layer is shellacked over (or nowadays, I guess polyurethaned). Of course, one would want a "varnish" that would not cause the dyes to fade.

I assume - and it is a pity - that because of the black and white layer behind the dyed starches, the autochrome process lends itself only to transparencies and not reflected light substrates. Otherwise, I was hypothesizing a removeable layer that could be exposed on a glass plate, then removed and repositioned onto paper.

But I am way out of line - I haven't even made my own emulsion yet, so what do I know!
 

kb3lms

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inkjet inks could be used provided that they stay put during processing.

My thinking was along the lines of printing the color filter screen (say a Bayer pattern) on the base using a water insoluble inkjet dye with a high-resolution inkjet printer. There are also 4 mil sheets made for the screen printing industry that claim to be waterproof once printed with regular inks and the ink won't run. IDK exactly if that's true but the materials aren't hard to find. You could then coat the base on the other side (assuming it was subbed) with a suitable emulsion.

Or, you could possibly even print the filter screen on this waterproof subbed side and then coat the emulsion on directly on top of it?

Assuming the ink could be made to stay put and was available to the average person, then it would seem to me that anyone with a photo quality inkjet printer could make a (crude) DIY color transparency film. The quality of the screen (and image) would depend on the quality of the printer, I suppose.

Even if the waterproof material didn't work as claimed, I have to believe there are water insoluble inks available. There are certainly inkjet printable films available, maybe Melinex 535 would work?

I believe some inkjet inks are water based and others are solvent based. I think you'd want a dye ink, though. I have a feeling a pigment ink would not work as well.
 

Photo Engineer

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Those that printed screens on transparent support have done what is suggested here. But, you must remember that this is not Autochrome but rather is more related to Dufay.

And, I repeat here - think about this - there is no means (AFAIK) for producing a reflection additive product. None whatsoever. In fact, I have discussed it with others who should know and they agree. In fact, this may have been why Neg-Pos additive products were never made, only the Neg could be made with that technology.

PE
 

newcan1

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I'm still confused at how the neg would work. Presumably, you just develop the plate as a b&w negative. But what about the starch dyes? Would you use C,Y,M? So if say you had red light, you'd get adjacent Y&M starch grains letting light through? I find it easier to conceptualize where dealing with a positive and the dyes are essentially RGB.

I have some old Liquid Light emulsion that I must have bought ages ago, maybe it's time to see if it's still any good.
 

newcan1

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Oh - and because my high school chemistry is very limited, I have lingering memories in my head of potato starch under a microscope -- but I have no clue if other starches are also cellular or granular like that. We have a box of cornflour starch in the pantry, could that be used?
 

Photo Engineer

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For Autochrome it is still R/G/B and you develop to a negative.

Liquid light is not red sensitive at all. It will not work unless you red sensitize it.

PE
 

newcan1

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Oh OK - so you could only use an autochrome negative to make an autochrome positive?

I forgot that liquid light is orthochomatic, we will have to leave to another thread how to red sensitize it.
 

Photo Engineer

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IDK what one would do to make an Autochrome positive, as I have no reference here for it. The negative was shown here but no positive, and you cannot make an additive print.

As for red sensitizing LL, IDK either. It will require some R&D and T&E on your part. I only do this with my own emulsions since it difficult to predict for other products.

PE
 

brianmquinn

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Could you just get a 4x5 sheet of Tmax 400 that is sensitive to all colors and then have a seperate color screen to put over it for exposure? Expose and develop the film and put the screen back for printing / scanning? Alignment would be possible. Think about dye transfer printing and or masking.

Using the above method you might be able to get some interesting effects by putting the screen out of alignment. You could photograph and green tree but make it red or blue my putting the screen back differently.
 
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brianmquinn

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Using DR5 to develop the film you could also have a positive with this method. Or you could reverse process it yourself with Photographers' Formulary Reversal Process Developer T-Max for Black & White Slides.

Now if only I could get myself a screen I could try this out.
 

brianmquinn

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I just found this earlier thread. It's worth a read if you have not seen it yet.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

brianmquinn

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The problems of Reregistration have been discussed in detail in the thread I linked to in post #68. There are several photographic examples too. When I made my first suggestion here (Post #65) I had never seen the earlier thread. Most of the things I was thinking about doing have been done and tested there. Take a look.
 

newcan1

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I saw the other thread - very interesting. Frankly, it is a long thread, and only one person (Steven Frizza, I think) put forward an example of perfect registration. I would think that the courser the screen, and the less random, the more likely registration would be possible. I think it would be extremely unlikely with as fine and as random a screen as Autochrome. I give the prize to holmburgers for his perseverance, however, in trying to come up with a system from scratch.

I guess in my little world of photography, which is very small, the goal would be to abandon computers, use true analog science, and try to create something like an Autochrome, which probably offered the best resolution of any of the screen processes. I fear that this would likely be limited to using glass plates and a screen coated thereon. I would imagine it would also be far easier to accomplish than trying to use a registration system -- except that producing a panchromatic emulsion seems to be difficult, costly, and where successful, a closely guarded secret.

I am thrilled that people including members of this thread are investing time and energy in this. As technology advances, it dumbs us down, and we lose old skills. I am glad people are keeping those skills alive.

I would probably get involved in the experimentation here is a commercially available liquid panchromatic emulsion were available, but it is not. Trying to make such a thing is way beyond my capabilities at present.
 
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holmburgers

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It's great seeing some good ole' screen-plate (this is the catch all phrase to describe Autochrome, Dufay, Paget, Thames, Finlay, etc., etc., etc.) discussion!

Indeed, a lot of this has been covered in that thread. Stephen Frizza has printed out a screen with an inkjet and has shown very good results. That man's the real deal. With my TV-screen idea, I've not done enough with it lately but the main problem (after I abandoned all sorts of futile attempts at using adhesives) has been re-registration; though I suspect a diagonal Condit 4x5" punch would help a lot. Unfortunately, that's an expensive and rare item and I always like the idea of everybody being able to do something, easily. The finer the screen, the harder it'll get.

Take any screen-plate and run it through a normal b&w developer and you'll get a color negative in complementary colors. The screen always needs to be RGB, but a red subject will become cyan in the negative process. If you break it down and imagine what the screen does to say, a red apple, it becomes clear why this is the case. Red light from the apple penetrates the red dye elements, which turn black/opaque when neg-dev'd; green & blue remain, voila!

The only way to make a screen-plate print on paper is something like this -> (there was a url link here which no longer exists) *warning, totally hypothetical*

Let's not forget this quote by Mssr. Frizza;

"Ok no offense to anyone who has posted here and I stress this is just a general comment its not directed at anyone. This thread was started on the subject of RGB screens. Why over complicate a relatively simple concept? the places this thread has gone makes me scratch my head in wonder!!! lets keep this simple concept simple! RGB screens work in their simplest form and simple works well. some of the things i have read here make it sound like people are wanting to go around the sun to meet the moon."
 

EASmithV

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what about running sheet film through an inkjet printer? as long as the dyes didn't totally wash off, it'd work, right?
 

newcan1

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I've seen other threads on here re: panchromaticity/spectral sensitizing dyes and I think PE indicated that one dye cost about $100/gram. I just wonder what the early pioneers including the Lumiere brothers had to work with. Was the science that sophisticated back then? I know, I should do my own research, but I am not one who could afford $100 for 1 gram of stuff that I'd likely waste getting started.
 
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