Wondering About Developing Film

[braxus]

Megan at Beau Photo was saying you have to fill the Paterson tanks completely, for proper agitation. Yet you guys mention only partially refilling them for just 1 reel. If I was to get the 3 reel tank and only put 1 reel in it, what is recommended?

 

[braxus]

Hi Matt. Your offer sounds like an idea. Maybe next month I might get this from you. Is yours the current Paterson tank or an older version?

 

[MattKing]

Megan at Beau Photo was saying you have to fill the Paterson tanks completely, for proper agitation. Yet you guys mention only partially refilling them for just 1 reel. If I was to get the 3 reel tank and only put 1 reel in it, what is recommended?

I have done both. Since I mostly use X-Tol replenished, I fill the tank. When I used to do more one-shot development, I filled the tank partially, although I did make sure to put empty reels on top to ensure that the full reel doesn't ride up the column. If you are using partially filled tanks, you have to take care to make your agitation consistent and repeatable.

Hi Matt. Your offer sounds like an idea. Maybe next month I might get this from you. Is yours the current Paterson tank or an older version?

I believe I have both a two reel Super System 4 and a two reel System 4.
Plus a bunch of steel reel tanks.
I need to dig into the boxes of darkroom backup stock that I packed before our move earlier this year.
When were you thinking - reach out by PM?

 

[braxus]

Matt, I might reach out middle of next month when the next payday is for me. Im not sure what the difference is between the System 4 and Super System 4 is? I'd want the Paterson reels of course. I dont really want to mess again with metal tanks and reels, as my rolling technique wasn't always perfect. I've ruined a few rolls back in the day with the film touching.

I enquired with London Drugs here to see if they'd be will to accept my used Fixer to put into their silver recovery unit. She is going to ask and get back to me. Being a business not wanting to take risks, I have a feeling they'll say no. Where else do you dispose of your used fixer?

My workplace sells 4L jugs of distilled water, so I might just get some of that for my use here.

 

[RLangham]

I'm gonna say some controversial things.

One... consider Dektol as a film developer. It's not for everyone, but I adore the high contrast, "textured" look. It's very cheap. 20 USD will get you a gallon, and you dilute it to 3-1 or 7-1 (usually) before use so that's actually a lot.

Two, if that's not your bag, D-76 is some of the cheapest stuff and it works great.

Expensive developers can be a high barrier to entry and it is possible to get started without them.

Three, and this may be a less controversial statement now than a couple years ago, consider a Rondinax or modern equivalent for 35mm. It streamlines the process so much for black and white, though the thermometers in the old ones don't stand up to color developing at standard working temps.

Fourth, a dark room with a little light coming in isn't the worst thing in the world for loading film into a tank, as long as you can do it fast. An interior bathroom with the door shut will do, and I did all my loading in there until someone gave me a dark changing bag.

 

[MattKing]

Where else do you dispose of your used fixer?

Pre-Covid, my used fixer went to friends in my Darkroom Group who have a silver recovery tank working.
It is tough to do that now - Zoom meetings for now while we wait until things change.
A litre of working strength Kodak Rapid fixer for film has the capacity to fix 32 rolls of film.
I re-use it until a clip test plus the capacity recommendation tells me to replace it.

 

[braxus]

I dont do a whole ton of B&W rolls per year, so the cost of using Xtol is not prohibiting me from using it. That said I might shoot more if I'd be doing my own developing, so its hard to say.

 

[Paul Howell]

Megan at Beau Photo was saying you have to fill the Paterson tanks completely, for proper agitation. Yet you guys mention only partially refilling them for just 1 reel. If I was to get the 3 reel tank and only put 1 reel in it, what is recommended?

For D76 1:2 I use the recommended ML listed on the tank, have no idea why a complete inversion with less than a full tank would no give proper agitation. Seems to me that it's the other way around, with a completely full tank not as much sloshing around. The down side of a partial tank with replenished developer is more air is introduced into the developer oxidizing the developer more quickly?

 

[Paul Howell]

Is there any reason not to get the 3 reel tank over the 2 reel tank? I might get the 3 reel, so 4x5 is an option. Is the 3 reel tank still good even when only doing 1 35mm roll?

I agree that the 3 reel tank is the better choice.

 

[Paul Howell]

For 8X10 get a color paper drum, not too expensive, it has feet, cut those off so you can roll across the counter. Although I use 4X5 tanks and hangers on occasion I'll do a couple of sheets in a 5X7 tank. Take 10 to 20% off the developing time, very little chemistry is needed, no scratching. Unlike a BTZS tube you can add and pour out chemistry in the light. Or buy a motor base.

 

[braxus]

What insert is used for the 8x10 paper drum?

 

[MattKing]

What insert is used for the 8x10 paper drum?

None - the back of the film goes against the inside surface of the tube. Sometimes there needs to be clips or channels.
I might have a Beseler one for you - I'll check.

 

[mshchem]

Don't cut the feet off. These orient the trough inside the tank to hold the chemistry. When you put the tank on the roller the sheet is wet uniformly. Make sure you get a roller that reverses like a Jobo or you will get streaking from bromide drag.

 

[Paul Howell]

Don't cut the feet off. These orient the trough inside the tank to hold the chemistry. When you put the tank on the roller the sheet is wet uniformly. Make sure you get a roller that reverses like a Jobo or you will get streaking from bromide drag.

What is your no tgoing to use a motor base, I use a Unicolor motor base, but if not and going to manual roll it, back and forth?

I have Bessler, Uncolor, and a off brand similar to Cibachrome, all fit a 8X10 sheet of paper without a clip, on the Bessler need a clip for 2 5X7.

 

[Sirius Glass]

When using the Patterson tank, if you only do one reel, you guys mention to fill it less. Does this cause an issue when inverting the tank while developing, or do you even do that anymore?

Unless the center core lock the reel to keep it from sliding, I put in additional reels to fill the tank. Then I fill the tank to the top.

 

[braxus]

Let me know Matt. I could add that to what else is on the list.

 

[Donald Qualls]

To answer a question that seems to have gotten skipped back up the thread a bit: Xtol has no hydroquinone. The developing agents are a phenidone derivative (phenidone, dimezone S, dimenzone B, etc.) and sodium ascorbate, aka vitamin C. It's basically what you'd get if you converted D-76 to replace the metol with 1/10 as much Phenidone (equivalent) and replace the hydroquinone with a functionally equivalent amount of ascorbate.

Given five liters of Xtol stock costs about $12 US (in the US, it's probably more in Canada even before applying the dollar conversion rate), and with 1+2 dilution and loading two rolls of 120 on each reel (easy to do, just load one, push it around and in until it stops, then load the other and stop as soon as the tail passes the ratchet balls) you can process 12 rolls per liter -- that means 60 rolls for whatever it costs to get your Xtol to your door. I'm replenishing mine, which means it costs me a little less (I use 70 ml of stock solution for each 120 or 135-36), and will cost even less when I finish using up the replenisher portion of the first five liters and mix the second (first batch had the 2L of tank solution -- quantity because for 4x5 I need 1.6 liters to fill my Yankee Agitank -- pulled out of the 5L batch, so only 3L gets used as replenisher).

BTW, I agree that Dektol (=D-72) works nicely on film (Kodak has recommended 1+9 dilution for film for eight decades or so). It's not as smooth-grained as D-76 because it has much less sulfite, and it's faster working because it uses carbonate accelerator rather than borax (like D-76 and Xtrol) -- but if you're printing too, there might be a certain amount of convenience in being able to mix and store just a single developer for both film and paper.

BTW, if storage containers are a limitation, I can confirm that commercial Dektol can be mixed in half the suggested amount of water at the temperature called out -- I've done it -- and the resulting double strength stock solution will keep in airtight containers for an extraordinary length of time. I have some I mixed that way (from expired powder) around 2005 and it was still good as of a few weeks ago.

 

[braxus]

Im thinking of getting a couple packets of the 5L size of Xtol, plus a few of the Fomadon Excel to get me started. I can mix the 1L packets for now, and when I use more rolls more often later on, switch to the 5L packets. My Canadian retailer doesnt sell Xtol at the moment, so I need to get this from Freestyle. I believe I plan on using Ilford Rapid Fixer for that, and maybe some Photoflo. Im looking at some stainless steel hanger clips (need 6) to dry the film. I am thinking of getting the 2 reel Paterson tank from Matt, and also get the 3 reel tank from the store. That B2 4x5 insert looks real good to me. Matt is looking into an 8x10 paper tank for that size. For beakers, all Id need is 2 1L containers. And to start a 1L collapsible container to store the developer. I might get that 5L wine bag and more 1L containers down the road. I think that would round up my needs, as I already have at least one usable dark bag. I still need a larger one for 8x10 though, which will come eventually.

 

[Donald Qualls]

DO NOT get accordion bottles.

They aren't as airtight as they seem; I find them hard to close securely, and I almost always make a mess trying to push down the neck to exclude air while putting the cap on. Plus they're impossible to clean inside.

Instead, go to your local supermarket and buy 1L or 2L bottles of club soda, store brand, for under a dollar each, dump (or drink) the contents, rinse them out, and store your chemicals in them. They're very impermeable (they'll hold 7 bar pressure internally for months) and are easy to reseal; they can also be squeezed easily to bring the liquid right up to the cap. They're cheap enough to throw away if they get deposits you can't get out easily. You'll need a funnel to pour into them. And you *will* need more than one 1L beaker. I'd recommend at least three -- one each for developer, stop bath, and fixer (I use four, the fourth for my reused wetting agent bath, and mine are 2L because my sheet film tank needs 1.6 L). An alternative I've used for developer storage is a glass jar with cam-lock lid (pickle jars, for instance); the lids are tight and they're coated on the inside to keep the metal covered. A quick shot of butane lighter fuel will exclude air when closing the jar, so the space above the developer isn't a problem.

The wine bag is a very good idea; I need to stop by my brew store and see what they cost there (much more convenient for 5L of Xtol than a string of small bottles, and they're very impermeable).

 

[braxus]

Im putting up a video of all this progress on a channel I have on Youtube as well. I'll make a video of this journey back to developing film again, and show my first roll.

 

[mklw1954]

Xtol is a good excuse to get a 5 liter jug of wine. After enjoying the wine and making up the Xtol place in 1 liter plastic PET bottles. Plain seltzer, or club soda bottles, as suggested by someone else, are best. Squeeze the bottles to eliminate headspace air, cap tightly, and store in a dark place (a plastic tote is good for storage and containment for all chemicals). According to Kodak, the full, tightly capped liters will last 6 months and partially full, tightly capped liters will last 2 months.

 

[braxus]

Donald. That is good advice. Thank you. I plan to just use water for the stop bath, since some films like Efke don't like the actual stop bath you buy in stores. I'll look into 3 1L beakers.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I haven't used Efke film, but I use a lot of Fomapan, which is also reputed to have a soft emulsion, as well as having used microfilms in submini in the past (may happen again sometime). The only time I've seen problems is when using a carbonate alkali developer with an acid stop bath. I use acid stop bath, otherwise, because it reliably, promptly, and uniformly stops development, rather than allowing it to continue (perhaps unevenly) until the developer can diffuse out of the emulsion. I'd suggest testing some Efke film, if you use that regularly (are they even still around?), in your Xtol with acid stop, to see if it produces pinholes. I don't think it will, because borax alkali (as found in Xtol) doesn't produce gas when the acetic or citric acid neutralizes it.

 

[braxus]

Ive heard of pinholes with Efke in an acid stop bath, but since my rolls were done in a lab with Xtol, they very much may of used an acid stop bath. I didn't see any issues with the rolls I had done. I still might just use water though to keep the cost down a little. If I pour in the fixer soon enough, I may be okay.

Also Efke is long gone, but I have a large enough stash of this film when they went out of business. Efke 25, 50 and 100. Adox CHS II 100 is said to be the same as Efke 100.

 

[Sirius Glass]

DO NOT get accordion bottles.

They aren't as airtight as they seem; I find them hard to close securely, and I almost always make a mess trying to push down the neck to exclude air while putting the cap on. Plus they're impossible to clean inside.

Instead, go to your local supermarket and buy 1L or 2L bottles of club soda, store brand, for under a dollar each, dump (or drink) the contents, rinse them out, and store your chemicals in them. They're very impermeable (they'll hold 7 bar pressure internally for months) and are easy to reseal; they can also be squeezed easily to bring the liquid right up to the cap. They're cheap enough to throw away if they get deposits you can't get out easily. You'll need a funnel to pour into them. And you *will* need more than one 1L beaker. I'd recommend at least three -- one each for developer, stop bath, and fixer (I use four, the fourth for my reused wetting agent bath, and mine are 2L because my sheet film tank needs 1.6 L). An alternative I've used for developer storage is a glass jar with cam-lock lid (pickle jars, for instance); the lids are tight and they're coated on the inside to keep the metal covered. A quick shot of butane lighter fuel will exclude air when closing the jar, so the space above the developer isn't a problem.

The wine bag is a very good idea; I need to stop by my brew store and see what they cost there (much more convenient for 5L of Xtol than a string of small bottles, and they're very impermeable).

I agree I worked with FreeStyle and accordion bottles for years before I gave up on them and switched for bladders.