Why So Many Kodak Standard Developers?

[Grim Tuesday]

A few weeks ago a direct comparison on similarly exposed film with different developers was posted, I was quite surprised and somewhat impressed with how different they were.

 

[NB23]

I would hope every manufacturer tests their film in D-76...

There’s a new D76 formula coming...

 

[timmct]

That's interesting...I wonder what D76:improved will be?

Will it be closer to D23...or more complex?

Find your own ideal.

 

[jim appleyard]

There’s a new D76 formula coming...

And where does this news come from?

 

[removed account4]

I think there are so many developers and so many films and so many processes techniques so people will never make up their minds screw up their processing, by another roll or box, rinse lather repeat. Lot o flavor of the month clubs until they realize that for the most part unless someone is using something discovered for some rare situation mist developers will seem exactly the same ... that is unless they are pushing efke25 to iso 128.000

 

[NB23]

And where does this news come from?

Simply from BH’s website. Xtol as well...

 

[Luckless]

Has there been any word on an actual chemical or manufacturing process change for Kodak's developers, or are you basing this 'change' purely on a new SKU that has as much chance of being driven by the marketing or accounting department?

 

[MattKing]

Kodak Alaris has recently released a large number of updated MSDS documents which, when compared with the previous versions for HC-110 and T-Max developers show significant changes. This thread discusses the issue: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-hc-110-formula.169322/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Has anyone examined the new MSDS for d76 and xtol?

 

[NB23]

Has there been any word on an actual chemical or manufacturing process change for Kodak's developers, or are you basing this 'change' purely on a new SKU that has as much chance of being driven by the marketing or accounting department?

I’m doing this the amateur way.
I am basing it on B&H statements: D76 and XTOL “new release” as well as seeing the old D76 being “discontinued”.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

If D76 formula has changed, one wonders what necessitated the changes. Was there any special chemical in older D76 that required a complicated manufacturing process?

 

[Luckless]

I’m doing this the amateur way.
I am basing it on B&H statements: D76 and XTOL “new release” as well as seeing the old D76 being “discontinued”.

MattKing's link to the thread with discussions on the MSDS changes would seem to strongly suggest actual chemical changes going on [Or that someone had horribly screwed up past documentation?], but SKU changes and updates to package graphics seems to be a poor method to judge how different something is.

We do live in a world where ten different companies will buy the same product out of a factory in China, stuff it in their own box design, and market it as "New and unique!" after all. But maybe I'm just overly cynical and wary of marketing types?

 

[Alan Johnson]

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sit..._Chemical_CATALOG_ITEM_NUMBER_UPDATE_2019.pdf
Might be related to a change of the manufacturing contractor, IDK.

 

[NB23]

but SKU changes and updates to package graphics seems to be a poor method to judge how different something is.

We have all become extremely cynical in today’s world.

However, in the good old american way when it’s only a new packaging in question, the companies will usually specify “new packaging” or “new packaging, same great taste/formula”. In this case the mention of “discontinuation” clearly means that we are talking about a new/different product and not just a new packaging.

But again, we can not be sure anymore.

 

[timmct]

Matt's right, here. It will be found in the MSDS.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Formulary also has a buffered version of 76 which doesn't shift in pH between just mixed and when it plateaus a week or so later. That's why one needs to standardize on either fresh-mixed or wait a few days at least, when using ordinary D76. That problem has been recognized for a long time, and It makes a real difference. D76 was camera store convenient, just like Dektol. Everybody carried it.

Tmax wasn't necessarily "optimized" to D76 at all. But do you think Kodak was going to recommend someone else's developer, or a do-it-yourself home brew? They wanted to make it easy. But as good as TMax proved to be as a "silver bullet" film, replacing several former options, it also proved to be harder to aim, and less forgiving of error.

Bill Burk asked about tweaking TMax for an upswept curve for sake of portraiture. Well, yes, if you're referring to high-key Caucasian portraiture, like Plus-X was designed to do, then dilute 76 will yield a longer-toe, and a more upswept overall curve. But in T-grain films, Delta 100 will do an even better job at that, since it has more toe to begin with.

 

[NB23]

Drew, I have no idea where you get your info from, or how you create it.

Of course TMX was optimized for D76. TMX film was developed with D76 as its master developer.
In other words, only D76, and no other developers, were used in the creation and balancing of TMX.

In other words, TMX was made for D76.

 

[DREW WILEY]

{Moderator's Edit}
Kodak had no "master developer", whatever on earth that might hypothetically be. Does the same shoe size fit everyone? Just like they had a huge selection of films at one time, they likewise offered various developers depending on the specific application. They owned an entire chemical division.
{Moderator's Edit}

 

[cmacd123]

D76/ID11 is often the "Reference Developer " for any new Black and white film, and D96 is the reference for any New B&W Movie film. that does not mean the "Best" developer, just the one that is first tested. One assumes that the TMAX developer is optimized with T-max film.

any of the films are probably designed with as being a multi-purpose as possible. (which is one reason that folks miss some of unusual films we had in the past.)

 

[NB23]

To all the people reading this: know that TMAX 100 was developed with D76 as the benchmark.

If you do not like this historical fact, please understand that I cannot be held responsible.

 

[MattKing]

Why don't you just read post #19 in this thread?
After all, the development projects for the new films and developers were all projects being supervised by him.

 

[McDiesel]

Which developer does Kodak use to ISO-rate their films? Must be the same one to make their films comparable. I am willing to be it's D76 because what else can this be?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Which developer does Kodak use to ISO-rate their films? Must be the same one to make their films comparable. I am willing to be it's D76 because what else can this be?

As far as I know, it's D-76 (and Ilford use ID-11 - I think Fuji use one or other - not sure what Agfa used, Foma seem to use Microphen for emulsion characterisation). Some Kodak materials seem to use HC-110 (dilution B) for RMS Granularity (Agfa seem to have used Refinal - a Microphen-ish type of developer).

 

[pentaxuser]

I would hope every manufacturer tests their film in D-76...

Well unfortunately we do seem to be moving to an era where it may be that Kodak tests its film in Kodak developers and llford does likewise with its films. I base this on my observation that fewer film processing sheets seem to contain information on both makers' developers

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

MattKing's link to the thread with discussions on the MSDS changes would seem to strongly suggest actual chemical changes going on

We do live in a world where ten different companies will buy the same product out of a factory in China, stuff it in their own box design, and market it as "New and unique!" after all. But maybe I'm just overly cynical and wary of marketing types?

I wonder if any help was given by Mirko?

So will the new Xtol and D76 behave differently and presumably better than the old D76 and Xtol as developers? That's what most buyers will want to know

No I don't think you are being cynical. The word "new" usually carries an in-built price premium as well My wife wakes up every morning to a new pentaxuser. Well a lot of his cells have been replaced However being cynical as well, she is not prepared to value him any more that she did the "discontinued" pentaxuser of the previous night

pentaxuser