Why shoot analogue colour photos?

[Taylor Nankervis]

The answer is in the film workflow and aesthetic which cannot be duplicated digitally.

Yep. But why is this simple explanation so difficult for people to understand and appreciate?
I still put much more emphasis on the quality of the subject of the photograph than how it is photographed or printed.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The overall impression and HOW it is printed are inseparable. Otherwise, a "subject" is just a subject. It should always be something more.

 

[RezaLoghme]

Get a clue:

Steven Spielberg's upcoming 2026 film, currently titled "The Dish," is the latest big Spielberg movie that is expected to be shot on film,

A movie.

And: You think Spielberg fiddles in the darkroom and then goes on some internet forum to debate the pros and cons of Rodinol?

I remain on the view that analog workflow is now predominantly a hobbiyst thing (nothing wrong with that), especially when finddling in the lab ( and posting about it ) is a key part of it.

When looking at what pros do and talk about, say the ones who were featured in the annual Oskar Barnack Awards, I can read about their "mission", their creative ideas, their travels to foreign locations, sometimes (!) about their choice of gear (Hint: must be durable, easy to repair/replace).

6x9 folders, pinhole cameras, niche TLRs, GDR M39 SLRs from 1970s Western German mail order catalogues, obsessing over Rodinol...a nice hobby, on par with vintage cars, making our own bread or the unique world of model trains. The beauty of a hobby is that the process matters as much as as the outcome (if not more).

 

[dcy]

A movie.

And: You think Spielberg fiddles in the darkroom and then goes on some internet forum to debate the pros and cons of Rodinol?

I remain on the view that analog workflow is now predominantly a hobbiyst thing (nothing wrong with that), especially when finddling in the lab ( and posting about it ) is a key part of it.

Has there every been a time, or an activity, where "fiddling in a lab and posting about it in an internet forum" was not primarily a hobbyist thing?

Whether analog or digital, whether photography or [whatever], I expect that in a professional setting you have a standardized workflow with as much automation and as little variability and as much reproducibility as possible.

Whether analog workflow is primarily hobbyist or primarily professional probably depends on whether you measure by number of people involved or by feet of film. While it may not look like it, I am making a point. If you are Kodak, the unit of measure that you care about is feet of film sold, not number of end users. If most feet of film are bought by a minority photographers and movie producers who use it professionally, then that's who your audience is.

 

[RezaLoghme]

Well, by "pro" I referred to professional photographers for whom photography is more or less the primary means of generating income etc. Dont nail me on the definition as my mother tongue is not English.

I beliebe the "pros" are obsessed with getting the right picture, whereas a hobbyist often prefers to debate minor technical details with his (virtual) neighbours, with an element of performance (e.g. in an urban setting with a Japanese TLR around his neck).

 

[koraks]

Dont nail me on the definition

This is not to bug anyone about definitions, but...if we're going to draw a line between 'professional' and 'non-professional' photographers, it's more or less inescapable that we make explicit what we're talking about. I did something similar about a page ago when talking about artists. Speaking of which, I think it depends a lot what kind of professional photographer you're talking about. I think that what @dcy said may hold true for some/many photographers who commercially shoot products, food, perhaps fashion (although there's a lot of creativity and experimentation going on in that segment), documentary, journalism etc. Then again, there'll be lots of exceptions as well as lots of niches within the established areas where people are working in a more free manner.

I beliebe the "pros" are obsessed with getting the right picture, whereas a hobbyist often prefers to debate minor technical details with his (virtual) neighbours

There are also plenty of amateurs who are obsessed with the picture while putting technique at a secondary (or tertiary) spot, and pros who just won't stop (for the love of Dog) talking about equipment.

 

[MattKing]

Well, by "pro" I referred to professional photographers for whom photography is more or less the primary means of generating income etc. Dont nail me on the definition as my mother tongue is not English.

I beliebe the "pros" are obsessed with getting the right picture, whereas a hobbyist often prefers to debate minor technical details with his (virtual) neighbours, with an element of performance (e.g. in an urban setting with a Japanese TLR around his neck).

Back in the day when professional photographers only had film, I can assure you that the discussions about technical details were common, and energetic.
The major difference being, of course, that they were either face to face or on the telephone.
And of course, sometimes via exchange of mailed letters.
In many cases, those technical discussions were focused on how to save money .
Because in most cases, professional photographers were concentrating on business.
Cameras, lenses, lighting equipment, album suppliers, film choice, process controls and/or best labs for the dollar were the sorts of subjects you could reliably count on!

 

[gary mulder]

If sales of RA-4 paper drops under the threshold that it’s no longer profitable to make the stuff than maybe it will mark the end of pure analog color photography. In my opinion that will be in a not so far future.

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

Back in the day when professional photographers only had film, I can assure you that the discussions about technical details were common, and energetic.
The major difference being, of course, that they were either face to face or on the telephone.
And of course, sometimes via exchange of mailed letters.

Energetic! You bet!
And...faxes...even late night nachos and brainstorming. The front door was always open...
A memory I have of the dawning of the 1990s (88 to 90) involved mathematical formulae of using Canon's TS-E lenses (set up of tilt measurement and conversion to sine); this became an obsessive, gripping "thinking person's" subject and the fax machine regularly spat out page after page of formula, diagrams and sketches of the individual TS-E lenses, often interspersed with grubby greyscale examples of photographs — by today's standards, enigmatic and fascinating stuff that occupied fellow professionals day after day, week after week. Some of us were at university, some again involved in the STEM field, so maths was a frequent, if sometimes irritating, repeating motif.
Mathematics was never my personal strong point, yet the formula for tilt (advanced by Canon through CPS decades ago) is surprisingly easy with a Sci calculator. None of these faxes survive today, and a fair number of the fellows who enthusiastically shared so much knowledge and how-to have also passed on.

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

If sales of RA-4 paper drops under the threshold that it’s no longer profitable to make the stuff than maybe it will mark the end of pure analog color photography. In my opinion that will be in a not so far future.

It is happening now.

 

[Agulliver]

Why do people love corks instead of screw-caps, when it comes to wine bottles?
Why do hobby chefs use expensive Japanese knives which no pro would ever use in the daily grind of a gourmet restaurant?
Because they love them, irrationally.

I will take an educated guess and say that in this forum, probably 60-70% are hobbyists. People who can play with cameras to enjoy themselves. Let them have their fun; their preferences are likely to be different from people who have to earn money with cameras.

Having a partner who has a set of Japanese knives (she grew up in Japan and trained as a chef for a time) I can actually see the point....once one has had basic instruction in how to use them. The best technique is very different to that for using a Western chef's knife. As a hobby cook too, I just have a few good Western knives. But if I were to start doing more Japanese cooking, I'd consider a Japanese knife or two. Especially for the delicate vegetable cutting.

Getting back to colour film! I'm definitely an amateur. I've been paid to take photos and even make videos/films...but it's not something I do often and I actually find that photography for payment sucks the fun out of it all. Primarily I am pleasing myself with my photography. If other people like it, and a fair number seem to, that's great. But I'm not doing it to show off.

the knife analogy again.....most people are happy with a phone camera. And a decent phone now does everything a 90s P&S film camera could do, and in some cases more. Most people don't understand why many of the likes of us have more than one camera and/or lens. Much in the same way that someone who has never learned to cook doesn't understand why an enthusiastic home cook has drawers of utensils.

 

[koraks]

It is happening now.

The decline has been happening for years. The outlook is unclear; my guesstimate is a decade or so before they definitively pull the plug.
Australia is one of the places where it'll disappear the first due to the logistics, which are not in favor for this product category.

 

[dcy]

Having a partner who has a set of Japanese knives (she grew up in Japan and trained as a chef for a time) I can actually see the point....once one has had basic instruction in how to use them. The best technique is very different to that for using a Western chef's knife. As a hobby cook too, I just have a few good Western knives. But if I were to start doing more Japanese cooking, I'd consider a Japanese knife or two. Especially for the delicate vegetable cutting...

the knife analogy again.....most people are happy with a phone camera. And a decent phone now does everything a 90s P&S film camera could do, and in some cases more. Most people don't understand why many of the likes of us have more than one camera and/or lens. Much in the same way that someone who has never learned to cook doesn't understand why an enthusiastic home cook has drawers of utensils.

I use Japanese knives. I do not claim to be competent with them. But I have to have *some* knives in the kitchen, and I like how these ones feel.

In fairness, @RezaLoghme said "Expensive Japanese Knives". Mine aren't expensive. They are the price of a decent set of knives, whether Japanese or Western. I think a product you use every day and lasts for many years (your knives, your bed, your couch) is a logical place to spend a little extra and get a good one that you enjoy using.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Australia is one of the places where it'll disappear the first due to the logistics, which are not in favor for this product category.

I'm not sure I see the logic there.

It is much easier to obtain Fuji products (Film and Paper) in Australia due to geographic proximity.

I can fly a return trip to Japan to pick some up for less than $400 if I wish and spend some time sightseeing while I'm there.

 

[dcy]

Speaking of which, I think it depends a lot what kind of professional photographer you're talking about. I think that what @dcy said may hold true for some/many photographers who commercially shoot products, food, perhaps fashion (although there's a lot of creativity and experimentation going on in that segment), documentary, journalism etc. Then again, there'll be lots of exceptions as well as lots of niches within the established areas where people are working in a more free manner.

Yeah. The concrete example I was thinking of was the movie industry. Spielberg's creativity doesn't take place in a darkroom. I'd imagine that he'd want the development & scanning steps to be quite automated and predictable.

 

[dcy]

I'm not sure I see the logic there.

It is much easier to obtain Fuji products (Film and Paper) in Australia due to geographic proximity.

I can fly a return trip to Japan to pick some up for less than $400 if I wish and spend some time sightseeing while I'm there.

Yeah. That comment had me scratching my head as well. Setting aside that we live in globalized world, I'd expect Australia to not have too much trouble acquiring Japanese products.

 

[koraks]

It is much easier to obtain Fuji products (Film and Paper) in Australia due to geographic proximity.

Fuji RA4 paper is exclusively made in Europe. Only a few niche products like Flex are made in Japan, but these constitute a vanishingly small segment of the already small RA4 market.

Japanese products.

Which this isn't; see above.

The concrete example I was thinking of was the movie industry.

OK, I see what you mean, but in my mind this discussion is about still photography. While there are obviously similarities, the differences are too big to ignore. This also relates very specifically to specialization of labor, which has major implications for how people relate to their profession at an individual level.

 

[gary mulder]

It’s less expensive to send a parcel from China to the Netherlands than to send a parcel from a adres in the Netherlands to another address in the same country.

 

[gary mulder]

How many lightjet printers are made today ? As lightjet printers are responsible for the almost all the demand for RA-4 paper.

 

[koraks]

lightjet

LightJet was a particular product type/group that ended up in the Océ Technologies portfolio through an acquisition I think somewhere around 2005-ish. It ceased to be many years ago. I don't think many LightJets are in use and I doubt that the total volume of Ra4 prints made on LightJets reaches even a single %.

RA4 paper is exposed in laser and LED systems, ranging from minilabs that are still being produced today to large-scale systems, some of which are in production (e.g. PoliElettronica, but volumes unknown), some of which are already of considerable age but still being used. As is common in the industrial printing industry, product life cycle is expressed in decades more so than single-digit years for the large systems that represent the bulk of the consumables use. So the relevance of the question of present production of systems is a little more difficult to answer than one might thing. We are looking at very different segments using very different types of machines, working at very different orders of magnitude, with very different investments and ROI requirements, and with very different time horizons.

 

[ChrisGalway]

You may as well ask why many Feature films are being shot on 35mm Film, edited digitally and then, for the most part, being displayed in cinemas digitally.

The answer is in the film workflow and aesthetic which cannot be duplicated digitally.

That's a good observation. There are a group of Directors who prefer film as the taking medium, but accept that the editing and final release copies are digital ... so they shoot film and digitise and display digitally.

Having said that, I think some of them (e.g. Christopher Nolan) really want their movies displayed on film stock as well, but there are only around 30-40 cinemas in the whole World capable of projecting those miles-long reels of 70mm film!

My point is the in the movie industry, shooting on film but then having a digital work flow and final product, is considered a worthwhile approach.

 

[koraks]

The question is what role sentimental considerations play in this choice. The big film advocates in Hollywood grew up with the medium.

 

[gary mulder]

I’m going to be corrected for this remark. But the sharp-unsharp rendering is different with a large sensor.

 

[ChrisGalway]

The question is what role sentimental considerations play in this choice. The big film advocates in Hollywood grew up with the medium.

Well yes, exactly, and I strongly suspect that's its "sentimental considerations" that are behind the use of film for at least some of us! Of course we rationalise everything by claiming analogue has a special look. It DOES have a special look (e.g. grain, blur) but we love it!

 

[gary mulder]

I’m going to be corrected for this remark. But the sharp-unsharp rendering is different with a large sensor.

example