Why no “time - temperature table” for b&w paper like there is for b&w film?

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Todd Barlow

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Is there a reason why there is not a “time-temperature table” for b&w paper like there is for b&w film?

The time temp table for b&w film does not list type of developer or film, so the table was developed without those two variables factored in?

I know that paper is developed while you can see it progress under safelight, but would it not be handy to know if the developer temp dropped how much longer you should develop it for?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Todd
 

ic-racer

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Historically Kodak has promoted processing only at 68 degrees.

The best quality prints are obtained by development for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes at a temperature of 68F (20C). Always keep the temperature of the developer uniform. Variations in temperature require corresponding changes in exposure, this introduces an unnecessary variable factor in to the system; as a result, you waste time and material.
The best way to control the temperature of a print-developing bath is to place the processing tray in a water bath maintained at about 70F (21C). The developer in the tray will then remain at 68F (20C), provided that the room temperature is normal. --Kodak "Professional Printing in Black and White"

Ansel Adams, as one might recall, used a development factor based on when the image first appears. This accounted for changes in development temperature.
 
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Ian Grant

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Is there a reason why there is not a “time-temperature table” for b&w paper like there is for b&w film?

The time temp table for b&w film does not list type of developer or film, so the table was developed without those two variables factored in?

I know that paper is developed while you can see it progress under safelight, but would it not be handy to know if the developer temp dropped how much longer you should develop it for?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Todd

There are actually Time/Temperature charts for different developers. I have one somewhere with a few on and there can be quite significant differences between types of developer. Some would be relevant for papers as well, D72/Dektol was originally a Plate/Film developer with short development times depending on dilution..

Ian
 

Photo Engineer

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It is not significant for current papers as they can be developed by inspection. The ones for film were published because one cannot generally inspect film during processing.

PE
 

Bill Burk

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I use a compensating timer by Curt Palm called CompnTemp

So essentially, I follow time/temperature changes all the time.

He reverse-engineered the original Zone VI Compensating timer and these are the parameters for the paper curve:

Profile name Paper_VI
Slope -0.06688102
Intercept 8.68402974
 

MattKing

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Sirius Glass

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As PE said paper is developed by inspection. With Dektol it is one minute for RC paper and two minutes for FB paper. Temperature variation with paper developers does not cause significant development changes.
 

BMbikerider

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Early on in my learning the vagaries of taking pictures and achieving good results in a darkroom, it was suggested to me by an old hand in the darkroom, that as we are paying a lot of money (relatively speaking ) for the silver content of the printing paper his mantra was, over develop the print as a matter of course and get your money's worth! If the exposure is right, with paper it is very difficult to overdevelop. Even then if part of a print was not sufficiently developed, he would force the process by removing the print then brushing on neat undiluted developer. It didn't work every time, but it can save the day

It makes sense really if you think about it. Using test strips, develop for whatever time you want so long as it is over the minimum time, which I would suggest is what the makers recommended. That way you ensure you get a full range of tones, or as full as your negative/developer/paper combination will allow. 'Pulling' a print before it is fully developed is a travesty.

For resin coated I never give less than 1.5 minutes and for fibre based 3 min is my normal (at 20c/68f). Modern developers do not stain like those when I started out with photography, when you stuck rigidly with the times suggested by the makers.
 

bsdunek

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At least when I learned (70+ years ago) paper was always developed until there was no more change. Density was controlled by exposure. I still do it that way, and, my results are good. No reason for a time/temp table.
 

koraks

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Since development is more or less to completion (more: to be safe, less: for specific purposes such as warmer tone/reduced contrast) and development can be done to inspection, there's no need for advanced calculus. Simple as that.

If you want to exert any specific control, I'd agree with @ic-racer and follow the Adams method of establishing the time it takes for an easily-recognizable mid-tone to appear as well as the total development time at a known-to-work temperature and adjust development under unknown conditions accordingly. However, I personally don't bother.
 

mshchem

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At least when I learned (70+ years ago) paper was always developed until there was no more change. Density was controlled by exposure. I still do it that way, and, my results are good. No reason for a time/temp table.
This makes a great deal of good common sense . I adjust the developer temperature to 68 to 70 F. When I use a standard developer like Dektol 1&2 or Bromophen 1&3 I develop for a minimum of 2 minutes. I always use a timer. I have used 3 minutes too. Too many inexperienced workers pull the print too soon, overexposed and underdeveloped.

I occasionally will develop RC black and white at 100F 45 seconds. I've observed that leaving the print to develop longer doesn't effect further change. Paper should be developed to completion, Period. MHO
PS I'm not a advocate of developing above manufacturer recommended temperature :cool:
 

tedr1

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As has already been said by others the reason is that film development is interrupted when the required contrast has been achieved, normal development gives normal contrast, adjustment of contrast is obtained by adjustment of development time and temperature conditions.
On the other hand paper development (for normal conditions) is not interrupted, the contrast is fixed when the paper is made, and development proceeds until the paper is completely developed giving the maximum black. Extending the time doesn't increase the black nor change the contrast.
(NB. Some users chose to experiment with paper developer recipes and procedures for creative experimental reasons.)
 

Down Under

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With RC, what about DIPs - developer-incorporated papers?

It has always been my understanding that these must be developed to a fixed time, no more, no less. Very little variation allowed, in fact almost no variation at all, maybe at most +/- 2%-3%.

It may well be that in my old (post 70 years) age, I've got sloppier with my paper development, but over the decades I've found RC papers have 'progressed' (tongue in cheek term) from being fairly variable in contrast by altering exposures and development, to a 'one size fits all' product in which you have to develop to a fixed time and that's it. Too little time in the developer, you get mostly muddy grays. Too long, equally muddy dark grays.

In the long ago days quite a bit of contrast could be 'influenced' by diluting developers. Not so much now, other than the aforementioned muddy tones varying from light to dark grays.

Basically, in my experience with DIPs, time and temperature appear to be not only irrelevant, but also unimportant.

As a sort of disclaimer, I have to say that in the past decade, I've mostly printed with old (all kept refrigerated, but mostly dating from the mid 1990s to mid 2000s) Kodabromide/Kodabrome (FB and RC) and Ilford Multigrade III and IV. I keep a slowly dwindling but still sizable (and alas, dwindling all too quickly) stock of 11x14 and 16x20 Ilford Galerie FB (bought in 2000 from a photo studio) and a several boxes of 8x10 Ilford Multigrade FB I got in 1991 or 1992. All in original sealed boxes, refrigerated, and showing almost no contrast changes or shift. On the other hand RC paper purchased this year still stubbornly refuses to vary its contrast much beyond excessive whites or blacks with very little change in mid tones however much filtration I throw at it. Ditto the (also fresh) European RC papers which, although exhibiting very pleasant mid tones, I've found difficult to get any contrast changes from. Note the latter two are VC.

The filtration systems on my two enlargers (Leitz and LPL) were changed and new filters installed (at great expense) in 2015, along with all lights. Occasionally as a change in pace and technique I also print with a set of below-the-lens Ilford Multigrade filters (bought new in 2016) on an elderly Durst 66 enlarger I have (also with a new light). So all my lights and contrast filters are recent, not old.

Developers are Ilford Multigrade (an aggressive developer) and PQ Universal (which I prefer) and on occasion, Kodak Dektol, diluted as recommended. I prefer Dektol tones overall but PQ is by far easiest to work with.

I prefer to not change print developers at this stage, as I now no longer mix my own brews from basic chems.

As mentioned, all my papers are carefully sealed against humidity and refrigerated in a frost free unit at a uniform temperature. I've maintained this for years. On occasion I give paper to friends who print and they tell me exactly the same as I've written in this post.

Am I/are we just old duffers who are stuck in old-fashioned printing ways? Or do the developer-incorporated RC papers significantly dampen print contrast?

Your thoughts, please. I remain as always, open to experimentation in the darkroom, but find I'm in need of inspiration.
 
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MattKing

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With RC, what about developer-incorporated papers?
There aren't any of these left - at least not the true ones, which were better described as activation papers.
Any developer that is currently incorporated is miniscule in comparison, and is there to fine tune the paper's contrast and speed performance.
 

Down Under

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There aren't any of these left - at least not the true ones, which were better described as activation papers.
Any developer that is currently incorporated is miniscule in comparison, and is there to fine tune the paper's contrast and speed performance.

Hm. So I may well have cornered the market, at least in Tasmania, for these now-ancient papers. Multigrade III is, by today's standards, a has-been anyway, and I'm told Multigrade IV has been modified a few times over the years since its inception in the (gulp) '90s. My age and era are definitely showing...

It may be high time for me to read/reread one or several good updated books on print processing to improve my processing technique. Does anyone have any suggestions?
 

Photo Engineer

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Ilford papers still have some ID. Others exist. I have posted a test method here for that.

As for paper times of development, Chloride and Chloro-Bromide emulsions are limited in silver and other characteristics that limit the extent of development. If you over-develop them, they just go into fog. So, when you develop, you develop for Dmax and no fog. You don't need TOD charts. You just eyeball it!

PE
 

BMbikerider

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For resin coated I never give less than 1.5 minutes and for fibre based 3 min is my normal (at 20c/68f). Modern developers do not stain like those when I started out with photography, when you stuck rigidly with the times suggested by the makers.

I forgot to mention that with extended development using normal Ilford Multigrade 1V resin coated paper and the warm tone developer you can generate a warm tone as well. This a whole lot cheaper than actually using their warm tone paper which for some reason is a lot more expensive than normal MG1V

Photo Engineer has said that over development will create fog - well I have never experienced it with the times I use, which are typically as I quoted above. What length of time are you talking about?
 

Kilgallb

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I found this from Simon Galley in a post from April 2007

“Dear All,

No ILFORD Photo paper, FB or RC is developer incorporated anymore:

With the activator / stabiliser processors no longer about in large numbers we have no need to have developer incorporated papers, without, the keeping properties of the paper pre-processing are improved, gloss is improved and manufacturing ( coating speed ) increased.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited”
 

Photo Engineer

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Regardless of what Simon said, you can test for yourself.

Fog some Ilford paper. (I used MGIV.) Put a drop of Sodium Hydroxide on the paper. It will darken due to development. This shows that some level of incorporated developing agent is present for whatever reason.

PE
 

Pieter12

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I know one printer who develops at 75º or warmer for 2 minutes--he feels the blacks hit max while leaving the whites clean. On the other hand, I know another printer who will develop fo 7 minutes at room temperature for deep blacks. Both gentlemen make excellent fiber prints.
 

Ian Grant

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Regardless of what Simon said, you can test for yourself.

Fog some Ilford paper. (I used MGIV.) Put a drop of Sodium Hydroxide on the paper. It will darken due to development. This shows that some level of incorporated developing agent is present for whatever reason.

PE

It doesn't mean there's a developing agent incorporated in the emulsion, it does show that there's a component in the emulsion with weak development properties which is not the same thing.

Ian
 

Photo Engineer

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It is a reducing agent which discriminates, otherwise it would cause fog. Therefore, by definition, it is a developing agent. Non-discriminating reducing agents are things like Stannous Chloride and t-Butyl Amine Borane, used in E6 and E4 as general fogging agents.

Just a bit of clarity. This is an accepted definition for patent purposes.

PE
 

bernard_L

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From:
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TT-paper.JPG
 
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