Why is it that despite hype about "film revival," fewer color films are available?

[DREW WILEY]

I'll always get a kick out of these gear comparisons based on web rumor. Reminds me of the PowerPoint sales presentations by 20-something MBA's who could prove tortoises fly using a graph, even though they've never seen one themselves.

 

[warden]

I'll always get a kick out of these gear comparisons based on web rumor. Reminds me of the PowerPoint sales presentations by 20-something MBA's who could prove tortoises fly using a graph, even though they've never seen one themselves.

Glad to be of service, Drew.

 

[Berri]

Three days and numerous pages later and have not heard back from the OP. Beginning to look more and more like a troll.

or we just bored him to death

 

[Berri]

Kodak introduced Ektachrome somewere in the 80th the code name you perhaps know was EPN. Kodak has much succsess with first Ektachrome EPN. Some years after introducing this film Kodak reformulated Ektachrome (EPP).At this time Kodak stated they will not discontinue EPN because many professional photographers love the very special color characteristic. So they want offer both emulsions to further time paralel. (So long as there is a further demand to EPN - Kodak stated) Two versions of the same film with nearly identical characteristic? A paralel emulsion backing with E6 films ? Or was there a left over from finished EPN masterols ? At the time Kodak had produced new EPP ? On my oppinion (at this time) it was real smart from Kodak not to state : "We have a bigger amound of EPP stored - have some photograpers (and amateurs) still interist to use the older version - we are planning a sold out to special prices of old EPP"Berry that is a kind of real business and clever marketing (to state we let the EPN version in program - as long as many have interist and demand is there) or as long as it is sold out actualy? ???Some years later Kodak introduced the reformulated Ektachrome next generation (E100S/SW) the difference was not as much from my point. This Ektachrome version was indeed discontinued after Kodak had the next reformulation in their pipeline.This was the last (E100G/E100GX) but we should not forget E100VS !!!At this time Kodak offered also EPN and EPP.I have a katalogue from Kodak emulsions (2002 - 2003) there Kodak listed 14 different E6 films. Also the old EPN was in program? ???You may have thoughts like : "No wonder about Kodak went in bunkropcy later"But this issue indicates clear :KODAK STORED MASTEROLLS - and due to the beginning of massive losses in 2003/2004/2005 from sales this storage might have been longer as Kodak planned it.I was asking PE if he remembered a paralel emulsion backing of 3 Ektachrome versions.But he did not know.I bought EPN,EPP,E100G to the same time with fresh production dates.This films had phantastic characteristics - the difference of EPN and EPP is very smal but E100G/GX/VS are with much smaler grain. No storage failure,no production failure to EPN/EPP from my point but a realy greater advance from reformulation to E100 family I would like to state.So it must have been a real normal procedure to produce very low demand films within the 90th on higher scales.(The reason to let EPN/EPP and others to some years in sales)Remember just Kodak Ektachrome EPR this film was indeed produced paralel to others from my point. But also remember the Thungsten version EPY64 and its ISO 320 clone ! This films may have had a part of less then 1% of all Kodak E6 films (EPY and special the Ektachrome 320T) because they were too much expansive to amateurs and since 1997 (most of professional used digital beginning to this time) there was a very smaler demand from studio professionals.
Todays procedure would realy make sence in this way (to have higher scales in production from emulsion backing) But this can't indeed not come to a 15 years demand of a big production run (so as you stated) But let the scale of emulsion backing
be in the near to a 3 - 4 years demand. In case of Fuji E6 (and possible with some c41 films wich ran off) you just have to add a little more time (3,4,5 years??) because the sellings of films came more less than the original plans. (in 2009/2010/2012) for example.
And if we be allowed to count this estimated numbers we may come to results from the year of last emulsion backing to some low demand Fuji Films (2018 minus some years) : 2010 ?
A speculation of course - I realy see this point. But it would clearly analyse the actual Fuji Desaster from unlogical film discontinuation and heavy pricing of the last remainig Fuji Films !
So long as Fuji will give an evidence of the oposite - and Fuji seams to be not able to do this - just from my point.
Case solved from this explanation to you Berri ? Think about and just look at - what will happen next with Fuji Films.........with regards

you do tend to write quite a lot, you know that? I would like to hear PE on this, if kodak would actually sell old stocks as new formulations as you suggest. I think that a master roll cannot be stored for a decade without changes in the emulsion and I do think that the new ektar is fresh stuff...

 

[removed account4]

you do tend to write quite a lot, you know that? I would like to hear PE on this, if kodak would actually sell old stocks as new formulations as you suggest. I think that a master roll cannot be stored for a decade without changes in the emulsion and I do think that the new ektar is fresh stuff...

the film was not stored locally but
it was brought to the international space station and
stored in a large POD outside the structure. weightlessness and cold temperatures
and a 1m lead lined tank helped ward off cosmic and solar radiation.
when it came back to earth it was sold to a variety of different films. mostly to
buyers on antarctica. there is another pod with a master roll stored in it, but
it is supposed to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in the next few weeks. honda was
going to use asimo to operate the honda made shuttle to see if they could recapture the roll
but unfortunately, asimo got cold feet because he was thinking of his first love,
( he fell in love with rosie the robot maid from "the jetsons" when he
was working undercover as MAX the plumber's helper )

i don't buy new old stock color films for this reason. usually b/w films are stored in a mountain
or undersea cave at the north pole which seems to be a lot safer than outer space..

YMMV

 

[Fin]

For me, most of this thread is a bit TL: DR. But...

Use what you like. I use film. But I'm not pretending that it's better than digital, or that I'm better or smarter or more careful just because I use film.

^ That. Pretty much ^ All that.

Also... I like creating images and the process of turning them into framed prints without using any sort of computing device, like the one that you are staring at right now. I occasionally use digital, but I absolutely love using film. And something something something darkslide...

What was the question again?

 

[kb3lms]

Ilford is the ONLY film producer that offers even a remote sense of stability.

7 years on the lease, right? Tick, tick, tick

 

[RPC]

or we just bored him to death

Then too bad he didn't re-join us and bring some excitement and wisdom to the thread.

 

[warden]

For me, most of this thread is a bit TL: DR. But...


^ That. Pretty much ^ All that.

Also... I like creating images and the process of turning them into framed prints without using any sort of computing device, like the one that you are staring at right now. I occasionally use digital, but I absolutely love using film. And something something something darkslide...

What was the question again?

100%. There is nothing else like making a print using nothing but some solutions, a light bulb and your own skill. It's magic and I love it. Thank you.

 

[RattyMouse]

7 years on the lease, right? Tick, tick, tick

That is a big concern.

 

[michr]

There is definitive a revival - but we should become sure about the consequences - no one of these younger
Ladys (or Boys) 13 - 16 years old will buy a 35 mm camera and will give the new Samsung S9 (parents bought last week) into trash.
But if Kodachrome will come back (you are allowed to shot me now....) there might be lots of hipsters who will let there Iphone at home. (just to some weeks of hype) They may spent 50 bucks to a single roll (not enough for Kodak to bring it back) but these hipsters will love such expensive price just to show there Ebay cameras on the way to their job.
And they might be heros in their administration just to let their camera laying on an office table like here :

No one's throwing their Samsung S9 in the trash, at least not until it's obsolete. 30 years ago, if you wanted to make an image, you used film, with a selection of formats, including instant. All the world's four billion people, excepting NASA and a few other agencies, either used film, or they didn't make an image. That's a huge captive market for film manufacturers. Today, if you want to make an image you can use film and pay for both the film, development, and prints or scans, or you can use a digital camera of some sort (already paid for, or making monthly payments as part of your phone bill) and pay nothing else. You can share the images with anyone (or everyone if you like). Digital is practically free and ubiquitous.

So we have a situation where the situation switched from a tiny minority using digital cameras to a tiny minority using film. There's nothing compelling people to use film as in the past when it was the only game in town. People dropped film as soon as they could afford a digital camera. The heyday of film is gone, never to return. Whatever uptick you detect in film usage is a rounding error compared to the past. Film's in the long tail now.

 

[trendland]

Quite clear this is a minority. But what I realy don't like is to make unfair business to the cost of this minority.
Some stated : Wow - you don't want to know how much production is increasing from costs.
I state : thats right but some may overdrife it. This minority is able AND forced to pay more and more.
But it is unable to protect themselfes.
Because One just need films.
That is real sad because it is the basis of highest profits to some others.
Missmanagement may cause losses from high profit based business - that is true too.
But I realy don't like Pepsi cola sellers in a desert - and they are whimpering about constructed losses ???????
with regards

 

[kruiwagen]

No one's throwing their Samsung S9 in the trash, at least not until it's obsolete. 30 years ago, if you wanted to make an image, you used film, with a selection of formats, including instant. All the world's four billion people, excepting NASA and a few other agencies, either used film, or they didn't make an image. That's a huge captive market for film manufacturers. Today, if you want to make an image you can use film and pay for both the film, development, and prints or scans, or you can use a digital camera of some sort (already paid for, or making monthly payments as part of your phone bill) and pay nothing else. You can share the images with anyone (or everyone if you like). Digital is practically free and ubiquitous.

So we have a situation where the situation switched from a tiny minority using digital cameras to a tiny minority using film. There's nothing compelling people to use film as in the past when it was the only game in town. People dropped film as soon as they could afford a digital camera. The heyday of film is gone, never to return. Whatever uptick you detect in film usage is a rounding error compared to the past. Film's in the long tail now.

I agree with the fact that the heydays of film will not return. Although there is an increase in film sales. Just as there is an increase in vinyl also increased. It's hard to predict, but people don't always want the easy way. People want to do things slowly again. So it's an increasing niche market, altough small compared to what it used to be. If it's gonna increase further and support all the production and R&D costs is yet to be seen.

 

[trendland]

you do tend to write quite a lot, you know that? I would like to hear PE on this, if kodak would actually sell old stocks as new formulations as you suggest. I think that a master roll cannot be stored for a decade without changes in the emulsion and I do think that the new ektar is fresh stuff...

I asked PE but he can't tell.He told in general. Fuji have to tell that is the fact.
If they are producing actual E6 films in 2014/2015/2017 I would state the oposite.
But Do you all belive Fuji ?
I am confused about

with regards

 

[michr]

I agree with the fact that the heydays of film will not return. Although there is an increase in film sales. Just as there is an increase in vinyl also increased. It's hard to predict, but people don't always want the easy way. People want to do things slowly again. So it's an increasing niche market, altough small compared to what it used to be. If it's gonna increase further and support all the production and R&D costs is yet to be seen.

Hopefully the business is enough to sustain a number of small players and pay for repair and maintenance of coating equipment and fund a little R&D. I'm not sure what it takes to make that happen.

 

[Sirius Glass]

the film was not stored locally but
it was brought to the international space station and
stored in a large POD outside the structure. weightlessness and cold temperatures
and a 1m lead lined tank helped ward off cosmic and solar radiation.
when it came back to earth it was sold to a variety of different films. mostly to
buyers on antarctica. there is another pod with a master roll stored in it, but
it is supposed to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in the next few weeks. honda was
going to use asimo to operate the honda made shuttle to see if they could recapture the roll
but unfortunately, asimo got cold feet because he was thinking of his first love,
( he fell in love with rosie the robot maid from "the jetsons" when he
was working undercover as MAX the plumber's helper )

i don't buy new old stock color films for this reason. usually b/w films are stored in a mountain
or undersea cave at the north pole which seems to be a lot safer than outer space..

YMMV

Oy, where did I leave my aluminum foil hat?

 

[dscottjorgenson]

Take this for whatever it is worth: I was at San Jose Camera (in San Jose, California) last Saturday. Some event was underway and the Fuji sales rep from Southern California was in attendance. I enthused to him about Velvia 50 and 100 and said I hoped to see them continue. He said sales had been growing. I didn't ask for any details, nor would any likely have been forthcoming (IMO). One point of interest: besides showcasing Fuji digital cameras, of course, he was also giving away 135-format film, both C-41 and E-6. I shoot 120 so didn't take any, but the fact that he was at a photography event not exclusively hawking digital was refreshing.

 

[brent8927]

That is a big concern.

Can you expand on this? I am not fully up to date on industry news (all I know is Harman purchased Ilford).

 

[warden]

A healthy supply of E6 from Fuji and soon Kodak would make me very happy. Fingers crossed.

Take this for whatever it is worth: I was at San Jose Camera (in San Jose, California) last Saturday. Some event was underway and the Fuji sales rep from Southern California was in attendance. I enthused to him about Velvia 50 and 100 and said I hoped to see them continue. He said sales had been growing. I didn't ask for any details, nor would any likely have been forthcoming (IMO). One point of interest: besides showcasing Fuji digital cameras, of course, he was also giving away 135-format film, both C-41 and E-6. I shoot 120 so didn't take any, but the fact that he was at a photography event not exclusively hawking digital was refreshing.

 

[faberryman]

A healthy supply of E6 from Fuji and soon Kodak would make me very happy. Fingers crossed.

Just buy up a supply of your favorite Fuji film and stick it in the freezer. Do the same if/when Ektachrome comes out. It seems defensive steps against their discontinuation would be prudent.

 

[lantau]

Just a small, single data point. Foto Impex posted a link to a local newspaper (Berliner Zeitung) report about their Berlin store. Most of their customers are below 30 years old. Many use their parents old film cameras. The parents switched to digital/phones. The articles headline is that digital photography is for old people.

They sell about 10-12 starter kits a month in the physical store. Those are kits that let you develop film.

The paper said that Adox/Foto Impex is 'mainly selling photographic paper and chemicals, but also around 150,000 rolls of film a year.' (roughly translated quote).

 

[faberryman]

The paper said that Adox/Foto Impex is 'mainly selling photographic paper and chemicals, but also around 150,000 rolls of film a year.' (roughly translated quote).

Presumably they wouldn't be selling paper and chemicals if they weren't selling film. The negatives have to come from somewhere.

 

[lantau]

Presumably they wouldn't be selling paper and chemicals if they weren't selling film. The negatives have to come from somewhere.

Maybe their choice of words was down to what Mirko once said. That the best way to support them is to buy their paper. They hardly make money on film, but more is earned on paper. At least FB paper, which they coat in house, AFAIK.

 

[RattyMouse]

Can you expand on this? I am not fully up to date on industry news (all I know is Harman purchased Ilford).

Ilford does not own the land that their factory and offices sits on. They lease it and it expires in 7 years. By not owning their land, Ilford does not control their own destiny. The owner does and can sell it out from under Ilford. Hopefully that does not happen.

 

[warden]

Just buy up a supply of your favorite Fuji film and stick it in the freezer. Do the same if/when Ektachrome comes out. It seems defensive steps against their discontinuation would be prudent.

I’m doing exactly that - there have been some good deals on short dated Fuji products recently. And when Ektachrome is finally ready I’ll do the same.