Why is B&W paper so expensive?

[Loren Sattler]

If you believe that photo paper is overpriced by the manufacturers, please offer some reasonable explanations why so many have either gone out of business or forced to reorganize. I doubt it is as profitable as some posters here believe.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

If you believe that photo paper is overpriced by the manufacturers, please offer some reasonable explanations why so many have either gone out of business or forced to reorganize. I doubt it is as profitable as some posters here believe.

Exactly. You have to have a marketing department to sell the stuff, and product managers who manage the technical side of the portfolio. Then you have a sourcing department to come up with all of the raw materials; gelatin, paper base, silver, chemicals, etc. You have a production facility with machines that need personnel and maintenance, and don't forget energy bills. You have storage facilities (specialized) with temperature controlled environments. Then there's the R&D department with engineers, and please don't forget about owners, administrative staff, management, and so on. Packaging, quality control, logistics, transportation, mail and delivery... Property taxes, building loans, trips to photography shows, and staff employed to visit us here at APUG to answer our questions. All of it costs money.

In the price we pay, it's also included transportation cost, and then cost of inventory at both distributors and stores, plus profit for both.

I stand by my earlier assessment that I can't believe that a box of paper is as inexpensive as it still is, all things considered.

 

[Shootar401]

I don't know all the details, but the fact that Ilford paper is made in a country where wages are reasonably high, and the cost of running a business is reasonably high probably has a lot to do with it. I expect you could have it made a lot cheaper if you're OK with poor working conditions etc.

I'm ok with poor working conditions as long as I get my product.

Paper is still cheap compared to a film scanner, computer, storage devices and an ink jet printer.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

As with most things in life, we don't waste expensive things. Silver after all is a precious metal.

 

[jp498]

I started taking flying lessons in 2006 and got my private pilot certificate in 2007. One odd "advantage" is that, after being into flying, all my other hobbies look ridiculously cheap!

I rented planes to fly semi-regularly but due to circumstances I now haven't flown in a bit over a year. I still miss it and WILL get back to it.

I took some lessons when I was a kid, but ran out of money... I've got too much going on for work, hobbies that I like, family, to get back into it, and the realistic understanding that it's expensive is a hurdle. I fly as a passenger/photographer sometimes in old biplanes and supercub with Owls Head Transportation Museum once in a while for kicks. I also get to be a front seat passenger on some work trips to the islands around here in Cessna 206/7/8's which is a subsidized and fairly affordable adventure. eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHwCZJD49uM

 

[Neal]

Dear chip j,

Work out your exposure/contrast/dodge/burn on RC paper. Not only is it less expensive, it is much faster to process. If you use Ilford, the fiber based print will be extremely close. I'm sure other brands are good as well.

Besides, the actual joy is in the printing. Three hours of printing is less expensive than three hours at a professional sporting event (trust me, I go to way to many of those ).

Neal Wydra

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I think,it's too cheap.It's price and the price of consumables are in no relation to the effort that is added to turn it into a piece of art. some customers think.I've done all the work already.so,just making another copy shouldn't cost much more than the sheet of paper.Paper should cost ten times of what it is now,then, I could justify higher prices too,and it would keep the research going ,I'd hope.Once the research knowledge is gone, it's hard to impossible to ever get it backtechnology exit iseasy reentry is tough.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Take a look at this comparison. This is just a random sample though.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/186113-Arista-EDU-Ultra-VC-RC-Semi-Matte-11x14-25-Sheets

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/389115-Arista-II-Inkjet-Paper-11x17-50-Sheets-Glossy

I think Ralph is right.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Anyone who doesn't like the price of silver gelatin papers can simply switch to inkjet printing - that way you pay just as much or even more
for a sized sheet of paper with no silver or gelatin on it at all, plus the cost of the inks!

 

[Paul Howell]

From Montgomery Ward Catalog from 1952:

100 sheets of Kodabromide for $6.42 or in 2014 $59.70
100 sheets Ansco Helibormide in 1952 was $8.93 or in 2014 $66.33
25 sgets Dupont was $2.56 or in 2014 $22.34
A roll of 120 Verichrome Pan was $138 or in 2014 $12.23
A gallon of D76 was $1.84 or in 2014 $16.00
An Argus C4 was $99.40 or in 2014 $880.60

 

[Roger Cole]

I'm ok with poor working conditions as long as I get my product.

Paper is still cheap compared to a film scanner, computer, storage devices and an ink jet printer.

Well I'm not. If I knew a brand of paper was made in a sweatshop by mistreated workers I would not buy it no matter how cheap it was or how good it was.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I made (80) 5x7 and (4) 11x14 prints in my darkroom this weekend

Anyone who doesn't like the price of silver gelatin papers can simply switch to inkjet printing - that way you pay just as much or even more
for a sized sheet of paper with no silver or gelatin on it at all, plus the cost of the inks!

It's worth every penny. Also, I don't waste paper nor water. Also, my enlarger is over 30 years old and I never upgrade to a better one every 4 years either. I like spending money on silver gelatin paper because it's my part to keep the paper factory humming keeping analog photography alive. I do use inkjet printers, but rarely. Mostly to make inkjet negs for alt processes.

 

[Peltigera]

From Montgomery Ward Catalog from 1952:

100 sheets of Kodabromide for $6.42 or in 2014 $59.70
100 sheets Ansco Helibormide in 1952 was $8.93 or in 2014 $66.33
25 sgets Dupont was $2.56 or in 2014 $22.34
A roll of 120 Verichrome Pan was $138 or in 2014 $12.23
A gallon of D76 was $1.84 or in 2014 $16.00
An Argus C4 was $99.40 or in 2014 $880.60

I asssume those 2014 prices are the 1952 prices adjusted for 62 years worth of inflation. The D76 price is roughly what I would pay today in the UK as is the nearest I could find to the Kodabromide paper (Ilford RC gloss 8x10)

A bit shocked by Verichrome Pan costing $138 in 1952.

 

[Paul Howell]

It's worth every penny. Also, I don't waste paper nor water. Also, my enlarger is over 30 years old and I never upgrade to a better one every 4 years either. I like spending money on silver gelatin paper because it's my part to keep the paper factory humming keeping analog photography alive. I do use inkjet printers, but rarely. Mostly to make inkjet negs for alt processes.

I have had my enlarger for going on 40 years, I have a complete darkroom set up, to upgrade to an all digital darkroom, upgraded printer, scanner, PC, monitor, and software is over $3000. Which is why my wife does not complain too much about the loss of the largest bath in the house. From an historical view photography has always been somewhat expensive, I just sent in an order for chemistry and 16 rolls of film, 10 35mm 36s and 6 120, total was just under a $100, in 1952 it would have cost me over $900 in adjusted dollars.

 

[Paul Howell]

I asssume those 2014 prices are the 1952 prices adjusted for 62 years worth of inflation. The D76 price is roughly what I would pay today in the UK as is the nearest I could find to the Kodabromide paper (Ilford RC gloss 8x10)

A bit shocked by Verichrome Pan costing $138 in 1952.

All adjusted prices using the US Dept of Labor Inflation Caculator. I just bought a gallon size of a D76 clone on line for under $6.00 + shipping.

 

[mklw1954]

Try variable contrast RC paper from Photo Warehouse (ultrafineonline.com); 8x10 is about $0.50 per sheet. Freestyle Private Reserve RC variable contrast paper is a little more expensive, about $0.65 per sheet. I use both and like the results in 8x10 and 11x14. To me, fiber is nice but not enough to deal with the washing and curling.

 

[pentaxuser]

The impression I got from the OP's thread was his feeling, I think, that something had happened to paper prices fairly recently and hence his question. I have to say this recent rise in paper price is the part we need to concentrate on

I am a relatively newcomer to darkroom work, starting in 2003. At that point prices were say X pence per sheet and there they remained for a couple of years then if anything they went down but from about 2006/7 there was a very large increase in price which thankfully appears to have levelled off. Had we continued with the price rise trend then I seriously wonder at what point even serious enthusiasts would have had to curtail their paper use appreciably. I know I don't print as much now as I did in 2005-7 period. I used to have no problem in taking 36 frames and printing most of those negs as 5x7 and the better ones as 8x10. Not any longer sadly

This topic was raised a few years ago and the reply from Simon Galley centred around the massive rise in silver's price which was true. However as BMBikerider has pointed out silver has fallen considerably since then.

The period I have described above i.e. before the large price rises, was well into the digital and inkjet period and a lot if not most of the digital inroads into the silver gelatin paper market had already been made so the key question is this:

If Ilford( I use Ilford simply as the major producer of silver gelatin paper) were able to sell and make a profit on its paper in 2005/6 then given the price increases we have seen, it is either making much more profit now or its former price was earning no profit at all. Yet in 2006 when I went on the Ilford tour it was employing more personnel and not giving any indication that the consumer-price honeymoon had soon to come to an end

The best example of the chnage in prices occurred in the mid part of the first decade of this century with Ilford Postcard paper which was selling at about £15-17 per box of 100. There is nowhere now in the U.K. I can obtain this paper for less than about £44 per box!

So an increase of close to 300% in say 7 years. I certainly look forward to an explanation as to the economic forces that have justified this.I have yet to see such an explanation

Finally and without wishing to to introduce a combative note into the thread I have to say that frankly the arguments that revolve around the cost of paper to the enjoyment one gets from printing or how printing as a hobby compares to other hobbies in terms of cost or using smaller paper etc are not really relevant to the question asked by the OP, in my opinion.

pentaxuser

 

[chip j]

The impression I got from the OP's thread was his feeling, I think, that something had happened to paper prices fairly recently and hence his question. I have to say this recent rise in paper price is the part we need to concentrate on

I am a relatively newcomer to darkroom work, starting in 2003. At that point prices were say X pence per sheet and there they remained for a couple of years then if anything they went down but from about 2006/7 there was a very large increase in price which thankfully appears to have levelled off. Had we continued with the price rise trend then I seriously wonder at what point even serious enthusiasts would have had to curtail their paper use appreciably. I know I don't print as much now as I did in 2005-7 period. I used to have no problem in taking 36 frames and printing most of those negs as 5x7 and the better ones as 8x10. Not any longer sadly

This topic was raised a few years ago and the reply from Simon Galley centred around the massive rise in silver's price which was true. However as BMBikerider has pointed out silver has fallen considerably since then.

The period I have described above i.e. before the large price rises, was well into the digital and inkjet period and a lot if not most of the digital inroads into the silver gelatin paper market had already been made so the key question is this:

If Ilford( I use Ilford simply as the major producer of silver gelatin paper) were able to sell and make a profit on its paper in 2005/6 then given the price increases we have seen, it is either making much more profit now or its former price was earning no profit at all. Yet in 2006 when I went on the Ilford tour it was employing more personnel and not giving any indication that the consumer-price honeymoon had soon to come to an end

The best example of the chnage in prices occurred in the mid part of the first decade of this century with Ilford Postcard paper which was selling at about £15-17 per box of 100. There is nowhere now in the U.K. I can obtain this paper for less than about £44 per box!

So an increase of close to 300% in say 7 years. I certainly look forward to an explanation as to the economic forces that have justified this.I have yet to see such an explanation

Finally and without wishing to to introduce a combative note into the thread I have to say that frankly the arguments that revolve around the cost of paper to the enjoyment one gets from printing or how printing as a hobby compares to other hobbies in terms of cost or using smaller paper etc are not really relevant to the question asked by the OP, in my opinion.

pentaxuser

Thanks, pentaxuser. I'm a disabled, starving artist, not well-employed or a well-off retiree! I used to be able to afford it!

 

[tkamiya]

OP, why don't you try some store brand or off-brand paper??

I use Adorama branded paper and they are quite good. (sorry, if I sound like an advertisement...!) They are not as inexpensive as they used to be, but they are still less. I also use Ilford paper depending on my particular needs. Somewhere on APUG, I posted a thread about these paper. You may find it interesting.

 

[chip j]

I'll use anything that's FB. Silver Eagle from Ultrafine is the best bargain I see.

 

[Curt]

I would rather use less of the best paper I can find than more of a paper with less quality. Currently I started using Ilford Classic VC FB. My last favorite paper came in blue boxes and was called Oriental Seagull grades 2 and 3. I'm in the process of selecting a new enlarger. That's new, not a new to me - i.e. used. Ralph planted the idea in my head. "Why not buy a new one" he said more but I forget it off hand. The idea is there though. My Beseler is a basket case. My point is why buy the the best consumables and waste them on spent equipment. My Durst 138 (5x7) is worthy of continued use because it was built with long term use in mind from the beginning.

I've invested a lot of time, effort, and money learning Carbon Transfer and will be making carbon prints too. Carbon prints are spectacular in appearance.

 

[chip j]

I have a Leitz 1c & Focotar-2. I have way too many good pictures to make finished prints of each one. I just want to enjoy a "good enough" print on FB.