Why Fujifilm Thrived as Kodak Collapsed

MattKing · Jun 6, 2023

Moderator mode on:
The Kodak vs. Polaroid litigation issue is full of all sorts of political, legal and other non-photographic issues - all of which are outside of the ambit of this site. It is enough to say that the result of it mortally wounded both Kodak and Polaroid. Please refrain from continuing discussions on the whys and wherefores of that.
Moderator mode off.

Don_ih · Jun 6, 2023

MattKing said:
Kodak vs. Polaroid litigation

All anyone cares about is Kodak ultimately lost and had to fork over almost a billion dollars.

pentaxuser · Jun 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I only provided good ideas, my department, my division and higher immediately agreed with me.

Indubitably Sirius as they used to say in Noel Cowards plays

Helge · Jun 6, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
They lost a big law suit to Polaroid. The courts buried them. Although originally Kodak turned down Land's request to do the manufacturing for his product.

They did manufacture Polaroid film for a number of years.
Moderator's edit of the rest of it.

pentaxuser · Jun 6, 2023

MattKing said:
Moderator mode on:
The Kodak vs. Polaroid litigation issue is full of all sorts of political, legal and other non-photographic issues - all of which are outside of the ambit of this site.

Matt , frankly it sounds pretty difficult to me to have a discussion on why Fuji survived as Kodak collapsed without entering all sorts of political, legal and non-photographic issues to some extent. It tends to be in the nature of a thread such this

Might be easier to just lock it now

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 6, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Matt , frankly it sounds pretty difficult to me to have a discussion on why Fuji survived as Kodak collapsed without entering all sorts of political, legal and non-photographic issues to some extent. It tends to be in the nature of a thread such this

Might be easier to just lock it now

pentaxuser

To an extent.
But observations about the effect of the political and legal environment on the world of film manufacturing and sales are ones that we will cut some slack on.
If that turns into arguments about those political and legal factors themselves - they are out of bounds.

Steven Lee · Jun 6, 2023

MattKing said:
To an extent.
But observations about the effect of the political and legal environment on the world of film manufacturing and sales are ones that we will cut some slack on.
If that turns into arguments about those political and legal factors themselves - they are out of bounds.

Did you delete some messages? I am having difficulty matching your comments to what's been posted here. Looks like every comment here was focused on either photo technology or business concerns. I haven't noticed any political comments.

MattKing · Jun 6, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Did you delete some messages? I am having difficulty matching your comments to what's been posted here. Looks like every comment here was focused on either photo technology or business concerns.

I deleted part of a comment which itself included in it an offer to delete it by the commenting member.
The action was a response to some comments about the Kodak and Polaroid litigation which were more about the legal system than photography or the market. They remain - but please!! don't look for them and then respond!

Don_ih · Jun 6, 2023

I find it a bit funny that Kodak was told to pay Polaroid so much money and a couple of years later, neither had a pot to .... in.

cmacd123 · Jun 6, 2023

All I will say about Kodak vs Poloroid, is that I wonder why Kodak did not come up with a way to get Polaroid Bouught out. (anti-trust?)

Don_ih · Jun 6, 2023

cmacd123 said:
All I will say about Kodak vs Poloroid, is that I wonder why Kodak did not come up with a way to get Polaroid Bouught out. (anti-trust?)

Probably good that didn't happen, or there would definitely be nothing left of Kodak now.

cmacd123 · Jun 6, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Fujifilm has ventured out of imaging into healthcare, perfume, chemicals, software, even logistics. Meanwhile, Kodak got stuck in the imaging space fucking around with printing, web photo sharing, and other image-related upstarts. Today their best performing former division (Kodak Chemicals) is 10x size of Eastman Kodak. The reason? They left the imaging market.

yes, the most frustrating thing in my Mind about Kodak, is that they made so many attempts to get into related fields, (Magnetic Media, Stirling Drug, semiconductors, photocopiers.... ) and then decided after a few years that (DUH) it did not have the Margins of Film processing services..{In the 70s Kodak sold Consumers cameras as a loss leader as they made it back selling chemicals, Paper and equipment to Photo finishing}

note that ALL those fields are where Fuji has found traction.

Eastman Chemical may have been a distraction to Kodak Management, but if they had not spun it off it would itself have buffered the cash flow to avaoid bankruptcy. Not sure if Fuji has a basic Chemicals and Plastics business that is comparable. think about that as you sip a beverage out of a Eastman PFTE bottle.

fs999 · Jun 7, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Whether Copex HDP will remain in production is another question. We'll see what happens.

The only question is : if Agfa-Gevaert will find another reseller or sell it directly... I hope so.
On the other hand there is a similar film : AGFA Copex Rapid A.H.U. (Anti Halation Underlayer) (EPM Imagelink HS) converted by Maco Photo. It is even available in 120 !

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 7, 2023

Helge said:
If you want reasonable DoF for closeups in landscape, the trees and grass will move noticeably with the necessary shutter speeds.
You might be able to live with that. Especially if you have no other option.
Trouble is, people think that what digital provides is better or as good. Especially with stitching multiple digital shots.

Even pros scan their 8x10 sheets on an Epson and call it a day, so how would they know?

Most of the Velvia 50 shot was on MF and 135.
LF is only strictly necessary when you want a wall sized mural. And even then, a lot of great commercial street level ads and giant in-store posters has been shot on 6x6.

The extra speed provided by Provia and Ektachrome is crucial if light is interesting/not ideal and you want to stop down a lot and there is vegetation, birds, humans, cars, even fast clouds in the frame.

Velvia 50 in 4x5

Flickr Search — “velvia504x5”

www.flickr.com

Helge · Jun 7, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Velvia 50 in 4x5

Flickr Search — “velvia504x5”

www.flickr.com

Beautiful. And great light. Anything is possible with a lot of sun. What happens at dusk/dawn or in shade/heavy overcast?

Even at a quite large aperture like f16 in EV 12 light you are down to 1/8 speed @ EI 50.
With a polarizer even slower.

Helge · Jun 7, 2023

Kodak had twenty years warning with camcorders obliterating 8mm overnight in 82.

They had the best and most advanced sensors for decades. The Bayer array is a small reminder of the research acumen and capacity of Kodak in the 70s and 80s.

Management not heeding the above. Says heaps about company leadership in general.

The transition from film to digital wasn’t as abrupt and absolute in Japan and east Asia in general. Perhaps that buffered the blow for Fuji and left them time to react?

Agulliver · Jun 7, 2023

FujiFilm started out life as a subsidiary of an existing large chemical company. They diversified into magnetic recording tape successfully in the 60s and 70s, copying machines and medical imaging in the 60s,...they had their fingers in a lot of pies that didn't always carry the Fuji or FujiFilm name. There was always a lot to fall back on if one of those sectors imploded, as film did in the early 21st century. It also helped that FujiFilm successfully marketed digital cameras early on. And Instax. Do not underestimate the power of Instax to keep the film coating part of the Fuji business rolling. FujiFilm also foresaw the coming of digital photography and further diversified the chemical business in the 80s and 90s to such sectors as cosmetics.

Whereas Kodak read all the signs wrong, Diversified into the wrong markets. Got their own digital cameras out after others had established their reputations and when even *that* market crashed due to smartphones, they were again caught on the hop.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 7, 2023

Helge said:
Beautiful. And great light. Anything is possible with a lot of sun. What happens at dusk/dawn or in shade/heavy overcast?

Even at a quite large aperture like f16 in EV 12 light you are down to 1/8 speed @ EI 50.
With a polarizer even slower.

Here's Velvia 50 at Sunset. There's only one stop difference between Velvia 50 and Provia, Ektachrome, Ektar, Tmax 100, Delta 100, all are ISO 100. EVen when I shoot medium format with Velvia 50, due to deep DOF I;m often down at 1/2 second or longer. The issue with Velvia is dealing with shadows but you cant beat the rich colors.

VinceInMT · Jun 7, 2023

pentaxuser said:
It may be that Kodak had no choice as film was all it had left….

And let’s keep in mind that it also included the chemicals to develop that film, the printing paper and the chemicals to develop that, the machines that did the printing and processing, and the rest of what was involved after the user made an exposure. I worked in a processing lab in the 70s and we were a “Kodak” lab and used only Kodak materials and equipment. I sometimes wonder what landfill all those 8S and 2620 printers got dumped in.

Helge · Jun 7, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Here's Velvia 50 at Sunset. There's only one stop difference between Velvia 50 and Provia, Ektachrome, Ektar, Tmax 100, Delta 100, all are ISO 100. EVen when I shoot medium format with Velvia 50, due to deep DOF I;m often down at 1/2 second or longer. The issue with Velvia is dealing with shadows but you cant beat the rich colors.

Ain’t much chance of wind disturbing anything of importance in that scene.
One stop can be crucial.
Plus Velvia 50 doesn’t really push that well.
Provia does.

Look, I’m not saying Velvia 50 wouldn’t be very nice to have back in LF. All I’m saying is that there is perhaps good reasons for it not being available anymore other than the usual “Fuji are jerks”.

Sirius Glass · Jun 7, 2023

Helge said:
Kodak had twenty years warning with camcorders obliterating 8mm overnight in 82.

They had the best and most advanced sensors for decades. The Bayer array is a small reminder of the research acumen and capacity of Kodak in the 70s and 80s.

Management not heeding the above. Says heaps about company leadership in general.

The transition from film to digital wasn’t as abrupt and absolute in Japan and east Asia in general. Perhaps that buffered the blow for Fuji and left them time to react?

Some of Kodak management did not walk around with blinders on, they walked around blind folded.

Sirius Glass · Jun 7, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Here's Velvia 50 at Sunset. There's only one stop difference between Velvia 50 and Provia, Ektachrome, Ektar, Tmax 100, Delta 100, all are ISO 100. EVen when I shoot medium format with Velvia 50, due to deep DOF I;m often down at 1/2 second or longer. The issue with Velvia is dealing with shadows but you cant beat the rich colors.

I looked though some of your photographs. Really great compositions as well as properly exposed.

Paul Howell · Jun 7, 2023

Don Heisz said:
I find it a bit funny that Kodak was told to pay Polaroid so much money and a couple of years later, neither had a pot to .... in.

It wasn't a cupule of years later the suite was in the 70s. Both kept on trucking for over 20 years.

Helge · Jun 7, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I looked though some of your photographs. Really great compositions as well as properly exposed.

Agreed. Alan is a very good photographer. That Velvia is certainly not wasted on him.

Don_ih · Jun 7, 2023

Paul Howell said:
It wasn't a cupule of years later the suite was in the 70s. Both kept on trucking for over 20 years.

Look at when the judgment occurred. 1990

So not a couple of years, but not 20, either.

Why Fujifilm Thrived as Kodak Collapsed

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