Why Fujifilm Thrived as Kodak Collapsed

[bjorke]

Another great 24-minute Asianometry video:



Some good perspectives beyond and since Shigetaka Komori's book Innovating Out of Crisis.

(Edit: link updated)

 

[koraks]

It doesn't play for me embedded, but if I navigate in a new window to the video, it does work, using this link.

The question that this situation tends to bring up with me is what to make of the implicit assumption that survival of the firm is the most relevant factor to consider in industrial evolution. Kodak and Fuji followed different paths, and in keeping with Japanese business culture, Fujifilm as an entity (or rather, a complex, interrelated mass of entities) remains active, while still remaining recognizable as a brand and a business (even though they don't use this brand name in most applications). Kodak, on the other hand, performed a corporate strip-tease act that fits very well in Anglo-Saxon business culture and while what remains of Kodak today has very little to do with what it once was, its technology has spun out in different areas - some more successful than others.

What I have not seen to date (but it's probably there in the business literature) is a decent comparison of the total annual revenues, employment, net profits of the Fujifilm conglomerate vs. all businesses that originate in Kodak. Such a comparison is of course very difficult to make as it's inevitably 'contaminated' by all sorts of external influences. But it's societally a much more relevant comparison than the question what remains of a specific legal entity today. Yet, 'we' (us photographers, but also business researchers) tend to focus on Kodak vs. Fujifilm as business entities, and that brings severe methodological and practical problems with it.

 

[Cholentpot]

It doesn't play for me embedded, but if I navigate in a new window to the video, it does work, using this link.

The question that this situation tends to bring up with me is what to make of the implicit assumption that survival of the firm is the most relevant factor to consider in industrial evolution. Kodak and Fuji followed different paths, and in keeping with Japanese business culture, Fujifilm as an entity (or rather, a complex, interrelated mass of entities) remains active, while still remaining recognizable as a brand and a business (even though they don't use this brand name in most applications). Kodak, on the other hand, performed a corporate strip-tease act that fits very well in Anglo-Saxon business culture and while what remains of Kodak today has very little to do with what it once was, its technology has spun out in different areas - some more successful than others.

What I have not seen to date (but it's probably there in the business literature) is a decent comparison of the total annual revenues, employment, net profits of the Fujifilm conglomerate vs. all businesses that originate in Kodak. Such a comparison is of course very difficult to make as it's inevitably 'contaminated' by all sorts of external influences. But it's societally a much more relevant comparison than the question what remains of a specific legal entity today. Yet, 'we' (us photographers, but also business researchers) tend to focus on Kodak vs. Fujifilm as business entities, and that brings severe methodological and practical problems with it.

Kodak spun off side businesses like Eastman Chemical back in the 80's didn't they? As far as I know they're quite successful. Can anyone compile a list of companies that started with Eastman-Kodak who are now independent?

 

[koraks]

Kodak spun off side businesses like Eastman Chemical back in the 80's didn't they?

Or maybe the 1990s; it's in the video at about 75% I think. Easy enough to find in any case.

Can anyone compile a list of companies that started with Eastman-Kodak who are now independent?

That's pretty straightforward; a little less easy is to measure/estimate the effectiveness/impact/profitability/societal gains of that collection of spinoffs. But that's kind of the direction I was suggesting, yeah.

 

[faberryman]

And yet, as of today, who is making more photographic film? Wasn't Kodak recently making a film sold by Fuji as Fujifilm?

 

[bjorke]

Kodak spun off side businesses like Eastman Chemical back in the 80's didn't they? As far as I know they're quite successful. Can anyone compile a list of companies that started with Eastman-Kodak who are now independent?

I call it "Sears Disease" -- it hits many companies who have a legacy of doing One Big Thing. As that thing fails, they sell of the profitable parts of the company in failed attempts to shore-up the failing core. When the founders do it, it's maybe ego and personal identity -- when later execs do it, it's usually because the business was so successful as they rose throough the ranks that they never really learned in a challenging context (e.g. Sun Micro)

 

[Cholentpot]

I call it "Sears Disease" -- it hits many companies who have a legacy of doing One Big Thing. As that thing fails, they sell of the profitable parts of the company in failed attempts to shore-up the failing core. When the founders do it, it's maybe ego and personal identity -- when later execs do it, it's usually because the business was so successful as they rose throough the ranks that they never really learned in a challenging context (e.g. Sun Micro)

Kodak sold the spin offs in their heyday. They didn't need the other businesses to be successful.

 

[pentaxuser]

And yet, as of today, who is making more photographic film? Wasn't Kodak recently making a film sold by Fuji as Fujifilm?

Yes I am sure that koraks makes some very relevant comments on business philosophy etc but in terms of film production and its future which is I presume our prime interest here on Photrio, it appears to me that of the two it is Kodak that is still making film and it is Fuji that appears to have abandoned it or is in the process of continuing down that road.

It may be that Kodak had no choice as film was all it had left. Its "eggs were all in that basket" as the saying goes and Fuji had a whole range of things to pursue, perhaps more profitably

What is clear to me is that every company that wishes to survive in what we may loosely refer to as the "capitalist system" can only do so pursuing what the consumers want at a profit and returning the equivalent of shareholder/investor value

Such people who own the business, any business, are not philanthropists nor are they dedicated to the film business or whatever their business is because it is "in their blood"

pentaxuser

 

[Nitroplait]

Fuji may be the last-man-standing when it comes to silver based color paper and chemicals, they claim to have committed to that - Sino Promise appears to be leaving that market.
Fujifilm seems to find it necessary to outsource color film production due to challenges with maintaining qualified staff and continuous production. I just hope they manage to have their products produced to specifications like with Acros II, and not just relabeled products like is the case now.

 

[Chan Tran]

People simply don't think Kodak can make good cameras.

 

[MattKing]

Eastman Kodak has an important division that is involved in coating technology, including products related to photography. That is the division that happens to interest us here.
But that is only a portion of their business. They are mainly involved in a mostly unrelated industry - large scale commercial printing.
I'm not sure I agree that they sold off all the parts that got sold off when they were profitable. Anyone remember Eastman Kodak Stores? Or Rekordak?
I think they sold off businesses that were diverting resources from what they saw as their core business. And when those sale actions took place, that was true.
And then their core business plummeted.
In anything approaching modern times, cameras were always close to a loss leader. They fueled the sale of film, and that was their raison d'etre.

 

[BMbikerider]

People simply don't think Kodak can make good cameras.

Can I ask what has this to do with the company comparison. Kodak last made a 'good' camera decades ago.

 

[BMbikerider]

Fuji may be the last-man-standing when it comes to silver based color paper and chemicals, they claim to have committed to that - Sino Promise appears to be leaving that market.
Fujifilm seems to find it necessary to outsource color film production due to challenges with maintaining qualified staff and continuous production. I just hope they manage to have their products produced to specifications like with Acros II, and not just relabeled products like is the case now.

Not quite. Boxes of Fuji film (35mm at least) are made in America. The boxes it comes in is printed 'Made in the USA' When it was made by Fuji the 200ISO film was branded C200. The film that has taken it's place is branded simply Fuji 200. Also the 120 200iso film branded Kodak Gold is still made. There may be others but cannot be bothered to research which ones.

I have recently processed both the C200 and the '200' film versions and the orange mask looks identical,plus there is virtually no need to correct the filtration between the two. I cannot see it being any other than the same film rebadged.

I will also check the printing of the Agfa branded C200 film (Unobtainable from pre Covid days) which was alleged to be Fuji C200 and see if there are filtration changes with the current Fiji 200, I doubt it there will be.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I worked at Kodak and my coworkers and I saw that our recommendations and advice were duly ignored. I was in a part of Kodak that produced the greatest ROI in the company and a very hefty profit. I wanted to set up a business office in Los Angeles where they were missing the important new business opportunities to the tune of hundreds of millions of US dollars. My management backed me and we got started on that opportunity only to have it blocked by a vice president. About a year later we found out that it was blocked because that vice president wanted his incentive that he later got by selling off that very profitable segment of the business. The buyer has done very well with that purchase. So yes, the criticism of the Kodak management in this video rings true from the Kodak side.

 

[Chan Tran]

Can I ask what has this to do with the company comparison. Kodak last made a 'good' camera decades ago.

Some of the cameras made by Kodak were very good but the general public don't think Kodak makes good cameras while the general public think Kodak makes great film. So when Kodak tried to make and sell digital cameras (they did try hard to have good cameras, they were about first to have DSLR's) but the general public just don't think Kodak cameras are good stuff. Not being able to sell cameras they can't success when people switched to digital. Fuji doesn't do any better than Kodak in the film department. Fuji does well because they are successful in the digital camera field.

 

[faberryman]

I tried to find out about the person behind Asianometry, but apparently he wants to remain anonymous, identifying himself only as Jon Y. I wonder if all the stuff on his YouTube channel and in his newsletter is generated by ChatGPT?

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Anyone remember...Rekordak?...

I do. My late mother was a Rekordak employee during WWII.

 

[Paul Howell]

As mentioned, Kodak was a 20B company and in just a few years was a 2 b company, had huge plants, and never found a path away from film. Printers did not work out, although Kodak invented digital sensors never made the transition to a made in U.S.A digital camera. And I think, digital cameras evolved much quicker than Kodak anticipated, for that matter I ever anticipated, then what do I know? Kodak did not invest when they had the money in medical tech, chem tech, bio tech, or computer tech. In terms of making cameras, Kodak did make a few pro level cameras, MF and LF, designed good lens, but had to walk a fine line so as not to get in trouble with the Fed for monopolistic practices. That said the money was in the low end market, 110, 126, box camera. That said, Kodak survived much longer in the film business than Dupont, 3M, Ansco/GAF.

 

[bjorke]

Yeah, he's been using ChatGPT for years.... uh huh.

 

[Arcadia4]

I tried to find out about the person behind Asianometry, but apparently he wants to remain anonymous, identifying himself only as Jon Y. I wonder if all the stuff on his YouTube channel and in his newsletter is generated by ChatGPT?

Jon Y is his name. There is an interview here with him where from about 1.40 he explains his background. Born in US, worked in silicon valley area for 10 yrs, in tapei for 6 yrs, family background from Taiwan and Hongkong and how he got into producing the channel.

 

[cmacd123]

I do. My late mother was a Rekordak employee during WWII.

Kodak's Microfilm division was basically eroded by Digital storage. documents that were backed up on Microfilm, gradually became digital and were and are backed up on RAID and Magnetic Tape. (Fuji still is a player in Data tape I understand) kodak ended with a business they spun off that was mostly making high speed document scanners. that busness did still sell Microfilm, But in a twist it was made for the spin off by AGFA. (who stopped selling their own COPEX Brand Microfilm in favor of making Kodak Imagelink microfilm for the spin off.)

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Kodak's Microfilm division was basically eroded by Digital storage. documents that were backed up on Microfilm, gradually became digital and were and are backed up on RAID and Magnetic Tape. (Fuji still is a player in Data tape I understand) kodak ended with a business they spun off that was mostly making high speed document scanners. that busness did still sell Microfilm, But in a twist it was made for the spin off by AGFA. (who stopped selling their own COPEX Brand Microfilm in favor of making Kodak Imagelink microfilm for the spin off.)

Today, there must still be some microfilm used for document storage. Otherwise, why would Agfa continue making an ortho microfilm product? From the ADOX Wikipedia page:

"CMS 20 II ISO 20 An Agfa-Gevaert ortho micro film converted by ADOX offering very high resolution, needing special developer to tame contrast for normal pictures."​

 

[DREW WILEY]

They ironically still call themselves "Fujifilm", but darn little of their actual film selection has survived, yet Kodak's film selection is impressive even today, and quality-wise, better than ever. Of course, film isn't much good to me unless someone else makes printing papers; and that's what Fuji and Ilford are good at, with Fuji supplying color paper, and Ilford/Harman much of the black and white paper (plus their own b&w film selection, of course). I'm also glad Fuji still has strong momentum in its other divisions, just in case they have to subsidize what little film they still offer.

 

[Helge]

They ironically still call themselves "Fujifilm", but darn little of their actual film selection has survived, yet Kodak's film selection is impressive even today, and quality-wise, better than ever. Of course, film isn't much good to me unless someone else makes printing papers; and that's what Fuji and Ilford are good at, with Fuji supplying color paper, and Ilford/Harman much of the black and white paper (plus their own b&w film selection, of course). I'm also glad Fuji still has strong momentum in its other divisions, just in case they have to subsidize what little film they still offer.

They still make the greatest slide ever. Provia and Velvia is the pinnacle of chrome.
Ektachrome is fine, but is insanely expensive outside US and doesn’t always compare favorably with Provia.
The remaining C41film is markedly better than Kodaks similarly priced.
Acros is fantastic for night shoots and has a unique tonality.

 

[cmacd123]

Today, there must still be some microfilm used for document storage. Otherwise, why would Agfa continue making an ortho microfilm product? From the ADOX Wikipedia page:

"CMS 20 II ISO 20 An Agfa-Gevaert ortho micro film converted by ADOX offering very high resolution, needing special developer to tame contrast for normal pictures."​

I went through MILES of microfilm in my working days, all Pancro. (Kodak, Fuji or Gerveart depending on the bidder)) who knows where ADOX got that ortho stock.

if you check the site of eastman park Micrographics they say they closed down in December 2022 https://www.epminc.com/
but that some of their dealers ordered EXTRA stock of IMAGELINK Products before they shut down. And that Alarisworld.com still has some supprt for their scanning software. Since AGFA was making the Imagelink stuff for them that may be the end of the line.

Fuji still lists Microfilm on their site, but not sure of availability. https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/data-storage/microfilm/camera-source-document-microfilms