Why don't they make flash with auto mode that uses a sensor on the flash any more.

[Chan Tran]

That is interesting and surprising to me.
Because I have made exactly the opposite experience in the Nikon system:
Especially with introducing the 3D flash metering system with the F90/N90 in 1992 I've seen a really huge step forward with TTL metering compared to the auto mode with the metering sensor built-in the flash.
Metering and exposure results became so much better and more precise with the 3D system. The difference was so significant that from that time on I stopped using flash with my older Nikon manual SLRs, and used flash exclusively with the F90, later F5, F100, F80, F6.
The F6 with i-TTL is the top-performer in that regard: brillant results!

That the results are so much better is not surprising, if you look at the physical background: Light is loosing intensity by quadruple in meters. So if you double the distance, light intensity of flash is reduced down to 1/4.
The 3D system is metering both the distance to your subject and the needed flash power, and so you get exactly the needed value.
The built-in sensor in A mode in a flash cannot do that.

My suggestion for solving your problem:
1) Look on the used market for one of the top flashes who still have the in-built sensor, like Metz MZ-54, Nikon SB-800 etc.
There are thousands on the used markets. And these top-flashes are very robust and long-lasting. My oldest is over 35 years old, and still running flawlessly.
2) Use the best tool for the job, be flexible and pragmatic: For flash photography the modern SLRs just work much better than the older ones in my experience.
I would not recommend for example a F2 or FM for flash photography. Better to use a F90/F90X, F5, F100, F80, F6.
And an F90X or F80 can be bought on the used market for ridiculous low prices. Same for the AF-D or AF G lenses.

My experience with the F5 TTL flash really sucks. It consitenty underexpose my neg by different amount (so exposure comp doesn't help) So much that I stopped using TTL on the F5. The distance system is for direct flash and I rarely use direct flash. It works OK for fill but I don't use flash as fill that often. I sent the F5 in for service twice due to this and and Nikon said they found nothing wrong. On the older system like the F3 it was OK but not better than non TTL auto.

 

[Angarian]

It's also kinda interesting that interest in speed lights seems to have greatly diminished compared to say, ten years ago. I remember when there was a seemingly large and thriving strobist community. Is there still?

It is still there, and delivering outstanding results. Very creative people there. But almost exclusively digital photographers.
Why?
I think the main reason is that film youtubers / influencers have unfortunately fallen into a "marketing trap": Concentrating on mainly very cool looking, but also very old cameras which are simply not as capable for flash photography as more modern, sophisticated film cameras.
They realize the shortcomings of these older cameras with flash, and therefore avoid using flash.
And in consequence they don't report on their channels about flash photography with film. And enter the path of "film is only good for available light".
Which is of course not true at all.
But with that concentration in their channels on available light only all the new, young film photography beginners also get the impression that film is not good for flash photography. Unfortunately, it is really very sad.

 

[Angarian]

My experience with the F5 TTL flash really sucks. It consitenty underexpose my neg by different amount (so exposure comp doesn't help) So much that I stopped using TTL on the F5. The distance system is for direct flash and I rarely use direct flash. It works OK for fill but I don't use flash as fill that often. I sent the F5 in for service twice due to this and and Nikon said they found nothing wrong. On the older system like the F3 it was OK but not better than non TTL auto.

Strange. I never had such a problem with the F5, or any other modern Nikon SLR. I am using flash regularly.

 

[wiltw]

My experience with the F5 TTL flash really sucks. It consitenty underexpose my neg by different amount (so exposure comp doesn't help) So much that I stopped using TTL on the F5. The distance system is for direct flash and I rarely use direct flash. It works OK for fill but I don't use flash as fill that often. I sent the F5 in for service twice due to this and and Nikon said they found nothing wrong. On the older system like the F3 it was OK but not better than non TTL auto.

Interesting that iTTL and Canon eTTL were both about the same vintage, and you experienced flash underexposure with Nikon and so did I with Canon 20D and 30D, but then with the Canon 40D the underexposure issue disappeared (even with the same flash units used on the 20D and 30D) Methinks iTTL and eTTL both went thru some teething issues back in the early days of nTTL.

 

[benveniste]

If you have a film camera and it doesn't support TTL the most convenient kind of flash to use is one that has an auto mode that uses the sensor on the flash. You can buy old flashes that have this feature and cheap but if you want a new one you're out of luck. Cheap new flashes like the Godox or Younguo are quite good except that they don't have this feature. The only new flash I found that has this feature is the Nikon SB-5000 which is way too expensive to buy if you have something like a Pentax KX or Nikon FM etc..

I suspect that the market for people who wish to use new flashes with 20th century film cameras is quite small. While the Tocad website still lists, the Sunpak PZ58X, it seems to limited to "new old stock."

Sunpak PZ58X Flash - ToCAD America

The Sunpak PZ58X flash for Canon, Nikon or Sony is [...]

www.tocad.com

I own this one, but I was disappointed to find out it was incompatible with my Z8:

Amazon.com

 

[Angarian]

Interesting that iTTL and Canon eTTL were both about the same vintage, ........... Methinks iTTL and eTTL both went thru some teething issues back in the early days of nTTL.

Nikon i-TTL and Canon e-TTL were not introduced at the same time, and are also different.
Nikon's first bigger breakthrough in flash technology was already in 1988, with the introduction of the F801 and F4, together with the new dedicated flash SB-24. That combination works very well in TTL, and was a significant improvement in flash exposure accuracy. Nikon became a technology leader in that regard at that time.
The next big step was the 3D flash technology introduced in 1992 with the F90 (N90), together with the new AF-D lenses. Metering the distance, coupling with the measured distance and knowing where the focussed subject is in the frame, was a huge advancement in flash technology. By that Nikon became the absolute technology leader in flash technology at that time.
The other main camera manufacturers needed several years to bring similar technology to the market.
Canon's answer to Nikon's 3D technology was e-TTL at the end of the 90ies.
And later in 2004 Nikon introduced the further improved i-TTL system with the F6, which was the latest and best TTL flash technology for film.

During the 90ies and beginning 00ies hundreds of thousands of professional wedding and press photographers used flash on their film cameras almost daily. Both for fill-in flash, but also as a main light in darker light situations.

 

[Chan Tran]

Interesting that iTTL and Canon eTTL were both about the same vintage, and you experienced flash underexposure with Nikon and so did I with Canon 20D and 30D, but then with the Canon 40D the underexposure issue disappeared (even with the same flash units used on the 20D and 30D) Methinks iTTL and eTTL both went thru some teething issues back in the early days of nTTL.

The F5 doesn't have iTTL or even dTTL. It has a version of the film camera TTL but it does use preflash in some cases and also use focused distance information from the lens in some cases. I spent so much time, so much film testing the system and I finally gave up and not use TTL with the F5. As I said I suspect I may have a bad unit but I did try to send the camera back to Nikon twice for calibration and they said they found nothing wrong.

 

[Chan Tran]

I suspect that the market for people who wish to use new flashes with 20th century film cameras is quite small. While the Tocad website still lists, the Sunpak PZ58X, it seems to limited to "new old stock."

Sunpak PZ58X Flash - ToCAD America

The Sunpak PZ58X flash for Canon, Nikon or Sony is [...]

www.tocad.com

I own this one, but I was disappointed to find out it was incompatible with my Z8:

Amazon.com

If you own more than 1 brand of digital camera you would have to have different flashes for different cameras. Besides some old stuff like the Metz 45-CL4 would work just fine on your Z8 using non TTL auto mode. So it's not about using old film camera only.

 

[Angarian]

If you own more than 1 brand of digital camera you would have to have different flashes for different cameras. Besides some old stuff like the Metz 45-CL4 would work just fine on your Z8 using non TTL auto mode. So it's not about using old film camera only.

The Metz MZ 54 and MZ 70 series have been the latest professional / high-performance flash series which were adaptable to different camera systems via the dedicated SCA adapters.
MZ 54i (for you as a Nikon user) can be bought at attractive prices on the used market. I am using one, too. And I am very satiesfied with it. Very easy to operate (much much better user interface compared to the SB-800). And very solid, very high built quality.

 

[Angarian]

As I said I suspect I may have a bad unit but I did try to send the camera back to Nikon twice for calibration and they said they found nothing wrong.

It is very likely that you had a bad unit, as the F5 + Nikon flash has been a "workhorse set-up" for almost all professional press-, sport- and wedding photographers using the F5.
Here a test report about the Nikon SB-28 flash with F5, F100 by an award-winning photographer:

Review Nikon Speedlight SB-28

 

[benveniste]

If you own more than 1 brand of digital camera you would have to have different flashes for different cameras. Besides some old stuff like the Metz 45-CL4 would work just fine on your Z8 using non TTL auto mode. So it's not about using old film camera only.

The Metz 45 CL-4 Digital provides TTL with the Z8, and then only if you have one of the most recent (now discontinued) SCA modules. I own one with Nikon, Pentax 645, and MFT, and generic modules. It's clumsy and the NiMH battery pack is slowly dying. I do have a AA pack as a backup. But for the Z8, I normally use either an SB-800 or a Godox TT350n in lieu of a popup flash. (I still want an iTTL version of the SB-30, darn it.)

Metz went bankrupt trying to compete with less expensive Chinese offerings. For the list price a new CL-4 Digital and 3 SCA modules, one can now buy 3 Godox V1 or 6 TT685n units for different systems and use the off-system flashes for slaves. While the Metz is still great when you need to machine gun, the higher ISO offered by digital cameras has significantly reduced that need. sic transit gloria mundi.

 

[Chan Tran]

The Metz 45 CL-4 Digital provides TTL with the Z8, and then only if you have one of the most recent (now discontinued) SCA modules. I own one with Nikon, Pentax 645, and MFT, and generic modules. It's clumsy and the NiMH battery pack is slowly dying. I do have a AA pack as a backup. But for the Z8, I normally use either an SB-800 or a Godox TT350n in lieu of a popup flash. (I still want an iTTL version of the SB-30, darn it.)

Metz went bankrupt trying to compete with less expensive Chinese offerings. For the list price a new CL-4 Digital and 3 SCA modules, one can now buy 3 Godox V1 or 6 TT685n units for different systems and use the off-system flashes for slaves. While the Metz is still great when you need to machine gun, the higher ISO offered by digital cameras has significantly reduced that need. sic transit gloria mundi.

I have 2 SB-800 and 1 SB-900 but still there are plenty of time I need the Metz 60-CT4. I don't think Metz has any SCA module that support iTTL for the Metz 45-CL4. Only the 45-CL4 digital version. There 2 version of the 45-CT4.

 

[Steven Lee]

Interesting that iTTL and Canon eTTL were both about the same vintage, and you experienced flash underexposure with Nikon and so did I with Canon 20D and 30D, but then with the Canon 40D the underexposure issue disappeared (even with the same flash units used on the 20D and 30D) Methinks iTTL and eTTL both went thru some teething issues back in the early days of nTTL.

Yeah I too have been scratching my head reading these comments. My eTTL experience has been excellent, and that includes the 20D. And I was doing all kinds of stuff, with triggers and slave flashes, bouncing off random objects, indoors/outdoors, etc. What's interesting is that more experienced Canon users told me that the Nikon's iTTL was even better back then. I can only think of defective equipment or user error as a possible explanation.

 

[wiltw]

Yeah I too have been scratching my head reading these comments. My eTTL experience has been excellent, and that includes the 20D. And I was doing all kinds of stuff, with triggers and slave flashes, bouncing off random objects, indoors/outdoors, etc. What's interesting is that more experienced Canon users told me that the Nikon's iTTL was even better back then. I can only think of defective equipment or user error as a possible explanation.

I have shot professionally using Metz 45CT-3/-4 flash units in TTL mode with 35mm (Olympus) and 654 (Bronica ETRSi) and the consistency and accuracy of film TTL with both cameras was beyond any criticism. Then I purchased Metz 54MZ units, which could also be used with those same cameras, and also with Canon eTTL (20D, 30D, 40D) I can assure you there was zero 'user error'...mysteriously the Canon eTTL when from underexposure with the 20D amd 30D to perfect exposure with zero alteration of user methodology, and others with tons of flash experience also found the same thing and we posted our findings on POTN (now defunct).! Additionally, although flash could be bounced with exposure accuracy (not simply direct flash) if you mounted a softbox on the flashhead, it would not expose as well as simple ceiling bounce.

 

[Chan Tran]

One thing for Nikon iTTL the delay between preflash and actual flash is 167mS which is significant delay.

 

[koraks]

One thing for Nikon iTTL the delay between preflash and actual flash is 167mS which is significant delay.

I assume this is because the measurement preflash doubles as red eye reduction?

 

[Chan Tran]

I assume this is because the measurement preflash doubles as red eye reduction?

I tested it with the red eye reduction off. In fact I never used the feature. Surprisingly the older D-TTL the delay is only 25mS.