Why doesn't anyone make this?

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jmoche

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I know that there are attachments that allow you to "scan" a neg or slide using a digicam. But, I've never seen any such attachment for anything larger than 35mm. Why is there no adaptor that allows the user to "scan" just a portion of a neg (either 35mm or 120) and then stitch in PS? I tried building a rig to do this using a copy stand, but moving the neg around to get 6 shots that could be stitched was way too imprecise and the results were far from what I wanted. Anyone out there got ideas or the skill to build something like this?

--Joe
 

Kino

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Chan Tran

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I know that there are attachments that allow you to "scan" a neg or slide using a digicam. But, I've never seen any such attachment for anything larger than 35mm. Why is there no adaptor that allows the user to "scan" just a portion of a neg (either 35mm or 120) and then stitch in PS? I tried building a rig to do this using a copy stand, but moving the neg around to get 6 shots that could be stitched was way too imprecise and the results were far from what I wanted. Anyone out there got ideas or the skill to build something like this?

--Joe
Because if using camera the size of the negative or slide is really irrelevant. You can use a digital camera to digitize film on any size. In fact the smaller neg would be more difficult as you need lens with magnification higher than 1:1. If you need to stitch more shots in order to get more pixels you can do that too. Just move the film after every shot. Don't have to be precise in the movement as the stitching software can handle it fine.
 

danitoma

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As my first real diy project I built something like that. It allows relatively precise movements of the negative holder in all four directions and the abilty to lock one or all direction planes
 

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danitoma

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It's all mdf, the coloured tape is there for easier gliding, mdf on mdf kinda sticked together
 

removed account4

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it is a lot of work. but its doable
just get a light table and a micro lens and a tripod. photoshop's photo merge / stitching software might assembly easy.
( or you might end up LOVING weird abstractions / crops )
good luck !
john
 

Billy Axeman

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Accurate linear movements can be made with bearings for kitchen drawers. They usually have ball bearings, are available in many varieties and lengths, and they are cheap.
1036021-1.jpg
 

M-88

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In my opinion:

1. PS is time consuming.
2. Standard lenses don't have enough "flatness" of the image to attain good sharpness and the detail when photographing the negatives and macro lenses are, well, pricey.

I tried to "scan" a negative via digital camera and encountered a few downsides: first of all, I had to grab a macro lens. Then, I had to stop it down. A lot. Next step was achieving correct white balance in PS. Also, medium format shots still laked sharpness, no matter what I tried. If I scanned it piece by piece, it took even more time and that's where I dropped the whole thing and went straight to flatbed scanner. Silverfast made my life easier and now I have enough time to read a book while my negatives are batch-scanned.
 

Billy Axeman

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An interesting idea, but what about locking it in a specific position?

This is for the DIY guys of course. The rails have holes on both sizes and you can attach all sorts of stuff to it. So, I guess you could screw a small metal plate to it sticking out at the side which runs along a fixed bar alongside, with small indentations for fixed distances (stacking), or a spring which gives resistance, or a manual screw to clamp it on the bar. You can think of anything suitable to the application you have in mind.

These bearings are not as accurate as macro rails of course, but the two types I ordered were quite tight. Stability can be improved by mounting two bearings side by side at a distance. You get them in pairs anyways.
 

John51

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I've been thinking of similar. Being cheap, my ideas get cruder.

Latest idea is to hack a cheapo 35mm scanner, which are merely low mp box cameras. Cut away to make room for a much larger neg carrier, say 6x9 and refit the light source. The lens will be better in the middle than the edges, so mask out the edges.

Indexing notches in the neg carrier will allow (semi) precise alignment for multiple shots. eg. If masked to give a 12mm x 12mm crop, that's about six shots by six for a 6x6 neg allowing for overlap. Place in notch, click, move to next notch, click etc. Tedious but doable.
 

Billy Axeman

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In my opinion:

1. PS is time consuming.
2. Standard lenses don't have enough "flatness" of the image to attain good sharpness and the detail when photographing the negatives and macro lenses are, well, pricey.

I tried to "scan" a negative via digital camera and encountered a few downsides: first of all, I had to grab a macro lens. Then, I had to stop it down. A lot. Next step was achieving correct white balance in PS. Also, medium format shots still laked sharpness, no matter what I tried. If I scanned it piece by piece, it took even more time and that's where I dropped the whole thing and went straight to flatbed scanner. Silverfast made my life easier and now I have enough time to read a book while my negatives are batch-scanned.

I made two types of copy machines myself; film-to-film (35mm) and film-to-digital (35mm to APS-C DSLR). In practice it never works exactly as you imagined, so the best strategy is simply to build one and then gradually improve it as desired. I have no problems with sharpness whatever but there are many details in the construction that should be addressed and it is very easy to spoil the result.

About your remark about PS which is time consuming, well if you are using a commercial scanner you should save the file in the most neutral form possible without applying any settings from the scanner and then process it in a photo editor after that. So it makes no difference if you are using a scanner or a DSLR. In the latter case, with a DSLR, you are even scanning much faster and your workflow is exactly the same as if you were processing photos directly taken by camera; no need to spend time optimizing a scanner.

You absolutely need a good macro lens for copy work. They have an optimal aperture for maximum sharpness which must be tested separately. With too small f-numbers the lens is relatively soft and with too large f-numbers diffraction kicks in. I tested several of them and mostly aperture must be set to about f/8.

One thing often overlooked is stray light entering the path between lens and film causing flare and reducing contrast. So, you need to attach a bellows between lens and film holder, or mount a larger enclosure around it (blackened inside).

It is good practice too to switch off all lights in the environment (including daylight) and only use the light source behind the film. If light from the light source is mixed with other sources you can expect problems with white balance. I have a small LED panel for viewing negatives as a light source (Kaiser Slimlime LED) which is very evenly illuminated and it has a specified color temperature to which the white balance of the camera is set (even Auto white balance will do).

Making a serious stand-alone DSLR copy machine is not for the weak-hearted, and adding an X-Y feature for stacking is even more challenging. You will need countless hours for the design and the construction to optimize everything and one must have the skills, the tools, the parts, the materials, and a workplace to construct it, and in the end it will probably cost more than a commercial scanner. So, that is the main reason why so may people are buying a scanner, not because it is better but because it is easier.
 

Luckless

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To me this became a problem of time to setup and configure, vs runtime investment. I settled for spending the money up front for a decent flatbed scanner, as the 'setup and configure' time for my needs was really "Pull out of box, plug in, power on..."

However the runtime on actually scanning stuff, especially now that I've introduced some large format work that is even more fiddly to process on my off-the-shelf hardware, has enough bottle necks to it that I'm strongly considering building and refining a system to dSLR-scan negatives with a system based around inexpensive 3D printer tech - I need a carrier bed that will support film between a controlled light source and the camera, then move it to predefined positions while triggering the camera, then pump the batches of photos through stitching software... And with a bit of extra effort into the thing, I could have it take a magazine of preloaded film carriers that could be readied while the scanner is running to ensure less bottlenecking downtime...

It should only take me a few months of my free time to design, build, refine, and debug the work flow, but in the end it should allow me to finish scanning more photos in less time...

...

I could also wake up some morning to say screw it and just finally get around to buying an enlarger, but that comes with its own host of issues and totally different things to have to fiddle with.

Who knows what the future might bring? But I will agree that I'm kind of surprised such an off the shelf scanner setup isn't handily on the market already.
 
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jmoche

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There are some good ideas in there. I teach science in middle school, so you'd think I would have thought about the microscope stage idea myself, but... The drawer slides also seem like a possibility, but they only move in one direction. Trying to build anything more complicated than a cardboard box is way over my head, but I might be able to handle the drawer slides or the microscope stage. I do actually have 2 scanners -- an old Nikon 5000 for 35mm and an Epson 850 for larger stuff. It sure seems, though, that some folks have had much better success with using a digicam than they have with anything less than a drum scanner, and I've seen some examples that appear to be sharper than what's obtained from a drum scanner. I've already got a couple of decent macro lenses, extension tubes, and bellows, so it's just the movement of the neg that's got me stymied. I'm really enjoying shooting film again (mostly 120 B&W with an RB67 or Bronica ETRS), but I feel like I'm losing a lot of the quality in the scanning process. I still have all my old darkroom equipment, but no longer have a decent location to set it up and I'm not willing to sacrifice my garage as I once did. Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'll let you know what I end up with.
 

Billy Axeman

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.....
Who knows what the future might bring? But I will agree that I'm kind of surprised such an off the shelf scanner setup isn't handily on the market already.

Hi Luckless, that is a good idea to use 3D scanner hardware to hack for this purpose, but I fear it would work quite slow.
Ricoh-Pentax has (had) a very simple film duplication accessory for 35mm and medium format which was about E 1000,- in its most basic form (without medium format camera and macro lens). So you can imagine what a setup you propose would cost.
 

Billy Axeman

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There are some good ideas in there. I teach science in middle school, so you'd think I would have thought about the microscope stage idea myself, but... The drawer slides also seem like a possibility, but they only move in one direction. Trying to build anything more complicated than a cardboard box is way over my head, but I might be able to handle the drawer slides or the microscope stage. .......

These microscope stages are unsuitable; they are built for very accurate minor movements but much too slow for our application. With these you are endlessly turning knobs for each frame to scan and they also have a limited range, so perhaps you can use them for 6x6 MF but not bigger. One must be able to shift X- and Y-direction quickly to move the film around at predefined distances (hence my idea for the drawer slides).
 

Billy Axeman

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There is another option if you are only scanning small MF formats (6x4.5 or 6x6), which avoids stitching and the hardware for that.

That's possible with a camera with sensor-shift or pixel-shift as it is sometimes called. One of the cheapest camera's with this feature is the Pentax K-70 (APS-C). The result is an enhanced definition of the image on pixel level at the same resolution. I have done some tests with the K-70 on B/W MF film 6x4.5 (from a Pentax 645N) and I think you can get results equivalent to 4000 dpi. You must have a very good macro lens though, set at an optimum aperture, and the camera-mirror must be pulled up in advance to prevent camera shake, even on a tripod.

PS - If you have enough money you could also buy a Pentax K-1. This camera also features pixel-shift but it has a FF sensor with 36 M pixels instead of 24.
 
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jmoche

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There is another option if you are only scanning small MF formats (6x4.5 or 6x6), which avoids stitching and the hardware for that.

That's possible with a camera with sensor-shift or pixel-shift as it is sometimes called. One of the cheapest camera's with this feature is the Pentax K-70 (APS-C). The result is an enhanced definition of the image on pixel level at the same resolution. I have done some tests with the K-70 on B/W MF film 6x4.5 (from a Pentax 645N) and I think you can get results equivalent to 4000 dpi. You must have a very good macro lens though, set at an optimum aperture, and the camera-mirror must be pulled up in advance to prevent camera shake, even on a tripod.

PS - If you have enough money you could also buy a Pentax K-1. This camera also features pixel-shift but it has a FF sensor with 36 M pixels instead of 24.
I've got a GFX 50r, which is what made me go back to this idea in the first place. I have no problem using stitching. In fact, I want to stitch so that I can maximize the pixel count of the negs I "scan." When I tried this idea the first time with a Canon 5d, a macro, and extension tubes, I was shooting 6 exposures for a 645 neg (3 rows by 2 columns) and 9 for a 6x6 (3 rows by 3 columns). The output looked pretty good, but alignment was such a major issue that I set the project to the side. Now that I have a digicam with roughly double the pixel count of the Canon, it seemed like it might be worth a revisit.
 

calebarchie

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Yes, someone is attempting something, I imagine it is a very slow, complex and expensive venture. All I can say is search and you shall find (perhaps expand your forum repertoire, especially if you like rangefinders)

C
 

Billy Axeman

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I've got a GFX 50r, which is what made me go back to this idea in the first place. I have no problem using stitching. In fact, I want to stitch so that I can maximize the pixel count of the negs I "scan." When I tried this idea the first time with a Canon 5d, a macro, and extension tubes, I was shooting 6 exposures for a 645 neg (3 rows by 2 columns) and 9 for a 6x6 (3 rows by 3 columns). The output looked pretty good, but alignment was such a major issue that I set the project to the side. Now that I have a digicam with roughly double the pixel count of the Canon, it seemed like it might be worth a revisit.

Hi jmoche, it seems many people are struggling to get their images stitched. I have said it in another thread lately, if your program doesn't work for you try another. I'm using ICE (Microsoft Image Composite Editor) and my results are absolutely perfect even when I look at pixel level. However, you need to follow two basic rules: move the camera and the film nicely parallel to each other (in this case of copying film, don't rotate around a nodal point), and mind adding some overlap of about 20% in both directions (some people are doing even 30%). You have to tell the program which movement you apply and what the sequence is of the partial frames.

The ICE program has a straightforward interface which is very easy to use. You can find it here (free).
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/res...tography-applications/image-composite-editor/
 

Billy Axeman

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Yes, someone is attempting something, I imagine it is a very slow, complex and expensive venture. All I can say is search and you shall find (perhaps expand your forum repertoire, especially if you like rangefinders)
C

It is a very rewarding experience when your home made rig is up and running. I can assure you that a DSLR scanner works very fast. I scan 36 frames 35mm film in less than 30 minutes (including a check on the computer after each strip of 6 frames), that's less than 1 minute a frame.

When stitching is needed you can make your X-Y sliders work in such a way that it snaps in at predefined distances, which in practice could also work very fast.
 

MattKing

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You could have the negative/slide move to each of the four corners of a larger mask, where each dimension is slightly less than twice the dimensions of the original.
 

calebarchie

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Apologies for the confusion, I will paraphrase that post; I am referring to an existing long term project somewhere on the net, I will cautiously say (as to not offend anyone) it is a few steps ahead of what is posted there for the most part. Again, I'm sorry that is all I can really say..

C
 

jtk

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Get a micrometer adjusting microscope stage from eBay. `I'd send you the Nikon stage I bought years ago from a medical optics supply in San Francisco...but that's all gone now.

Best approach is to pay for a good scan (which will beat anything optical) and work from that using Photoshop...which has tools for the purpose.
 
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