Both are exactly the same thing. Working to make a photograph look like a painting. At least making a painting look like a photograph can have some appeal.
Why do you think Ansel Adams is better known than William Mortensen?
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Both are exactly the same thing. Working to make a photograph look like a painting. At least making a painting look like a photograph can have some appeal.
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Hmm... you better tell that to the person who just paid the highest price on record for a very fuzzy distinctly pictorial early Steichen print. Or how about the graphic mastery of Gertrude Kasebier, or Edward Weston's own early work? You can find bad practitioners anywhere - bad abstract painters, bad landscape painters, bad Impressionist painters, bad realist painters, bad photo-realist painters. Why should the broad swath of photography be any different? There are a helluva lot of sharp lousy photographs out there too. And the two fields - painting and photography - have influenced each other as long as they've been parallel. It's never been a one-way street. Some practitioners do both. .... but hopefully not in a morgue like Williiam Mortuarysen or J.P. Witkin. I hold my nose around those kinds of images.
Ahem. IMHO,
Art like music is a form of communication, and those who communicate with the largest swath of humanity are often regarded as the best artists or musicians. Technical facility is a secondary issue. AA was in the right place at the right time in this regard; he produced images of Nature that evoked positive responses from a huge number of people because they were popularized during a time of societal appreciation of Nature and the environment. Countless backpackers lugged their cameras into the wilderness because they were inspired by AA's photos. Some of them produced staggering images that were actually better than Ansel's, but they were late to the party...
Art is also obsessed with newness and in today's world, straight photography in the high mountains or the redwoods with an 8X10 is considered passe unless (like me) you just love that form of art. After falling in love with Ansel's work, I discovered Weston and soon after, a bunch of others who were obviously way more talented than I. Then the art world shifted away from straight photography...in an effort to stay current I attended a J. P Witken show and was deeply disgusted. Cindy Shermen: yuck. And today: digital collages that are obviously fake: yuck yuck yuck!
But that is only my opinion. Your opinion may vary and that's fine.
Art like music is a form of communication, and those who communicate with the largest swath of humanity are often regarded as the best artists or musicians. Technical facility is a secondary issue. AA was in the right place at the right time in this regard; he produced images of Nature that evoked positive responses from a huge number of people because they were popularized during a time of societal appreciation of Nature and the environment. Countless backpackers lugged their cameras into the wilderness because they were inspired by AA's photos. Some of them produced staggering images that were actually better than Ansel's, but they were late to the party...
Art is also obsessed with newness and in today's world, straight photography in the high mountains or the redwoods with an 8X10 is considered passe unless (like me) you just love that form of art. After falling in love with Ansel's work, I discovered Weston and soon after, a bunch of others who were obviously way more talented than I. Then the art world shifted away from straight photography...in an effort to stay current I attended a J. P Witken show and was deeply disgusted. Cindy Shermen: yuck. And today: digital collages that are obviously fake: yuck yuck yuck!
But that is only my opinion. Your opinion may vary and that's fine.
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When Vaughn brought up kitchy redwood pictures, I had to chuckle. Last year, we received a nature calendar with a picture for a particular month with a pristine gray wolf howling among the sword ferns, right in a shaft of sunlight falling between classic old growth redwood trees up there in his neighborhood. Wolves have been extinct around here for over a century; and the light and timing was, er, kinda remarkable remarkable. Another month had a shot of a plump large cougar lying right inside the window of Landscape Arch, right at the smack of dawn sunrise, in Arches NP. Another incredible coincidence of timing. And yet neither of those looked a bit like composite PS-faked images to me. They were entirely believable, and for a very simple reason. Where else would you find perfectly fluffy furred plump animals without a sign of a battle scar on them other than a trained pet? Does an improbable pose comprise a fake scene, or just another model setup? Of course, the use of those kinds of shots is rather sleazy if one is anticipating some kind of authenticity in a promotional calendar from a wildlife or nature preservation association.
Maybe the cougar was there at sunup like everyone else. To get his photo of it as well.
His agent told him to be there.
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Just like any other house cat, the cougar expected to be pampered and well paid, and not doubt had its own lawyer draft the modeling contract. And if the photographer tried to cheat him, well, that would just mean a free breakfast instead.
There is no accounting for bad taste and bad taste combined with large amounts of money.
Lets compare something with todays value, Bored Ape Yacht club. The NFTs sell for 6-7 digits USD for a 1/1 digital format in blockchain that can be copied by anyone. What's the value, it is used as a membership pass to exclusive parties, Yachts, and association with masons. Do you think AA did the same with sierras club? WM was ahead of his time as a artist but didn't have the huge backings from marketing, religious and non profits to boost his sales combing other tangibles to the price. This has been the reality of art used as a ticket master, dividing classes where the rest could only speculate in which fork and spoon to use in a fine course meal. If you want to see WM values rise, start dropping some cash higher then AA, let the price record, and it will stir a frenzy. Who's got the mega Yacht here?
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I was directly involved with the crews who built the biggest, most expensive yachts in the world, as well as the homes of the person who commissioned that. They loved their jobs because the almost no-limit budget allowed them to do that very high quality craftsmanship and creative thinking which they enjoyed and is rarely possible these days. Yeah, giant egos and conspicuous consumption is the name of the game with those really big tech entrepreneurs behind that level of spending; but they do provide a lot of good jobs to others at the same time.
AA was accused of having an inside track hobnobbing with the rich when that was seen as objectionable due to the Great Depression in particular. But in the big picture, his success was due to him being a tireless hardworking commercial photographer who had the great luck of being paid in stocks for doing field testing and promotion of a startup venture called Polaroid.
The Sierra Club didn't make him money either. He was deeply involved in the budding Enviro movement; but back then almost nobody's photographic prints sold for much. I was one of the locals up in the mountains, and we outright resented the huge horse convoys of people that Club took into the hills, and all the trash and erosion they left behind. But at one time, that was the strategy to get those areas Federally protected to begin with; and AA's pictures were highly instrumental in the creation of Kings Canyon NP to begin with. But those kinds of big camping outings with up to a couple hundred people at a time, and all kinds of silly trail amenities like cafeteria tents, commissary tents, packed-in stage setups, just seems to defeat the point of being in the mountains for me. Fortunately, that mass-invasion era is distinctly past in what are now official wilderness areas. But AA was in charge of many of those venues, yet still managed to sneak in a few dawn or dusk personal shots. He stopped backpacking per se in his early 30's; it was all mule packing after that, and often in relation to the Sierra Club, during summers at least.
AA was accused of having an inside track hobnobbing with the rich when that was seen as objectionable due to the Great Depression in particular. But in the big picture, his success was due to him being a tireless hardworking commercial photographer who had the great luck of being paid in stocks for doing field testing and promotion of a startup venture called Polaroid.
The Sierra Club didn't make him money either. He was deeply involved in the budding Enviro movement; but back then almost nobody's photographic prints sold for much. I was one of the locals up in the mountains, and we outright resented the huge horse convoys of people that Club took into the hills, and all the trash and erosion they left behind. But at one time, that was the strategy to get those areas Federally protected to begin with; and AA's pictures were highly instrumental in the creation of Kings Canyon NP to begin with. But those kinds of big camping outings with up to a couple hundred people at a time, and all kinds of silly trail amenities like cafeteria tents, commissary tents, packed-in stage setups, just seems to defeat the point of being in the mountains for me. Fortunately, that mass-invasion era is distinctly past in what are now official wilderness areas. But AA was in charge of many of those venues, yet still managed to sneak in a few dawn or dusk personal shots. He stopped backpacking per se in his early 30's; it was all mule packing after that, and often in relation to the Sierra Club, during summers at least.
It is great to hear stories from those who lived through the moments and created beauty on this earth. I enjoy learning and putting together stories from various collections. Many times the artist never see the real profits and the trail in forest runs deeper with moma. About what time frame did you see AA prices on the rise, after death? Another comparison can be made with Warner Sallman said to sold 500 million copies of 1940 head of christ. These links also go to Warhol and Basquait upper east side church tied to the influencers and huge networks that profit from art. Most artists can't compete on this level since they also tied into mainstream media. Banksy is a mystery although his first piece in Millions was in media by A. Jolie. WM was more the rebel doing things that wasn't yet accepted by society and media until later years. Could it be he was exposing the dark occult in the industry that's most are led to believe it's conspiracies. Not necessarily if we see darkness that we support it, it is a motivation to create beauty and step out of past egos.
When I was a student at Humboldt I took a class from Tom Knight, who knew Charis Wilson (nee Weston). I had the pleasure of having lunch with her and she told some great AA stories, which included hot trail hikes with smelly mules and billions of mosquitoes. Anyone who has backpacked extensively has mosquito stories.
Man Ray was a masterful photographer as well as a great painter and artist in general.
While he may not have pioneered any of the techniques he used, he often took them to a whole new level, or brought them to their logical conclusion.
As a (sort of) dadaist and surrealist he very much flirted with the kitschy and the cliche. But he did it with a very intelligent pre-postmodernist sensibility.
Something completely alien to Mortensen.
Show me anything from Mortensen that even approaches the quality of the above.
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I am really curious what you are meaning by quality. The portraits of Picasso and Dali are plain Jane and the final landscape looks like it was an afterthought that could have been taken by literally anyone. Man Ray did some amazing work, like the tears image above, but like most artists he also did a lot of uninspired crap.
I am not super fond of Mortensen but saying his work wasn't quality means you have a lack of understanding of what quality means, or are you applying your opinion to the word?
Personally I don't fall for the hagiography of artists. Just because Adams was popular doesn't make him the greatest. Weston was a far more interesting photographer than vanilla Adams. Adams was a competent technician but I wouldn't even call him an artist. A better "Adams" could be made today because the medium has advanced. Try making a better Pepper #30 though.
Everything one says, is in some sense an opinion. That is implicit.
And by quality I primarily meant as in mindset/impression/ideology etc.
But quality as in bad/good applies too.
His portraits like those of Dali and Picasso are exactly not basic bitch portraits.
There are subtleties of lighting, dress, pose, background and a hint of solarization that makes them arresting and worthy of the subject.
The very fact that Man Ray could shoot these two titans tells you much of what you need to know about him.
The forrest avenue is not something most people would see. The low viewpoint and the observation of the geometry is unique.
Sure, it’s been done to death today probably, but for 1930 is was unique.
Still arresting.
When you deal with art to even a modest extent, you quickly realize that “the great man” theory really does apply here.
Sure, any artist will make a lot of crap and mediocre stuff. But that is almost a constant. So after the shock of discovering that barn of chaff, it really becomes a relatively uninteresting observation.
The big artists are often, far from always, but often, quite deserving of their reputation.
Art like science is a peer review process and the ultimate test is time.
Any kind of inflation will have the air let out and the true worth of the art becomes apparent after some decades.
Sure, Picasso for example was a great actor and storyteller, and had some great marketeers working for him.
But he was also an exceptionally great artist.
You realize that when you look at his contemporaries and also-rans of the first half of the century. Many of whom had the same chances and basic skill set.
Was luck involved? Sure! To a frighteningly large degree too.
But if you can’t put one foot in front of the other to walk, no amount of luck is going to help you.
Man Ray was a great artist. Mortensen was not.
Ansel was also a great artist.
Was he as great as he is made out to be by his protégés and proselytizers? That’s is probably debatable. But he did do a solid body of work, that anyone with the inclination can look up by whatever means and medium they want.
Differences of amount and kind of talent exist.
Show us some photos or hold your peace.
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Something to note, WM real talent was in studio portraits with celebrities many of his work is not scanned or found online. I imagine the pictorials were experimental expressions of what he experienced in occult America hidden from plain view. His advancement pulled ahead when true color released while his peers were still in B/W. Some Photos he took were not allowed to be shown in public until they became legal a generation later in 1950s. He mastered shadow and lighting to bring out the finishing character with expressions in people. AA expressed it in nature. Going off topic but thread is about popularity between AA WM, Mray was linked to coco. Paris had control of art and fashion media. A lot of the occult is being exposed today, the baal is under fire. Look who owns the two biggest art auction houses and funded the rebuild of the midevil empire that burnt in paris a few years ago. He also owns those baal fashion companies promoting satanism. I don't support Ye but didn't he go missing after he dropped the baal.
They were contemporaries and frequented the same brothels.
Ha, you win the Internet today, z-ark. 
Otherwise, if you’ve not already, you might check out Phillip Rieff’s “My Life among the Deathworks,“ for an interesting philosophical take on the sociological threads you allude to.
Otherwise, if you’ve not already, you might check out Phillip Rieff’s “My Life among the Deathworks,“ for an interesting philosophical take on the sociological threads you allude to.They lived in the Parisian boheme artist inner circle into which not everyone was invited.
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It is interesting that the appreciation of the Grotesque has enjoyed a bit of a renaissance. Which serves as a historical reminder that such imagery actually has a place in the world of artistic appreciation.
www.theguardian.com
www.theguardian.com
Mona Lisa V ‘the monstrous’: the grotesque, shocking side of Leonardo da Vinci
The Italian master didn’t just paint the conventionally beautiful. As a new National Gallery show reveals, he was also drawn to irregular, diseased and aged faces – all captured with mind-bending accuracy and compassion
‘She is a he’: Was An Old Woman, the painting that inspired Alice’s Duchess, actually a man?
Curator of Renaissance art exhibition claims grotesque sitter for portrait didn’t have a disfiguring disease, as was previously thought
here is everything you need to know about how AA and the mainstream of the time excluded Mortensen from the history of photography.
scratching well under the crust of time, it boils down as usual to a question of ... money.
scratching well under the crust of time, it boils down as usual to a question of ... money.
Rey - Masterful Photographer ? He did make photographs, and many were unorthodox for the time, he was injected into the Hall Of Fame of that era, apparently by powerful forces. I am not going to even try to diminish his stature and I know he has some hard core supporters. I have no obligation to jump all in and agree, nor not appreciate what Mortensen had done.
And Mortensen's technical writings were at top of game in those days, and still hold a lot of value today. In several ways, on technical side, I have him quite ahead of AA. Being good at teaching is of course never a guarantee of making good on it in actual creativity.
As for photographs, one can see value in Mortensen, or ... not. But quite a few from one overlap with the other, and that is all I said: if one can appreciate Rey, there is no way he completely ditches Mortensen, I the is honest to himself of course.
The answer? One was brilliant and the other a tasteless hack.
You could start your appreciation of Man Ray by learning to spell his name. A name he chose.
Again, please show me any good photograph by Mortensen.
His technical teachings are common stuff, at the time too, wrapped in mystery and alternative nomenclature.
There is nothing technically amazing about his techniques.
It’s plain old pictorialism, with all the connected ideas.
Obviously, someone is not a fan of Pictorialism.
I am sort of a fan of, among other things, F:/64, but that is pretty much passé except among amateurs. For that matter, isn't black and white passé except among amateurs? Reading Photrio, it seems like most amateurs are still trying to figure out how to develop film. I have a black and white photo of me in my football uniform taken by one of my friends' father when I was in elementary school in the mid-1960s. He knew how to develop film and make prints. Amateurs don't seem to be making much progress. Well, I guess they have moved beyond Pictorialism.
Query: Was Ralph Eugene Meatyard a follower of Mortensen?
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