Why do you think Ansel Adams is better known than William Mortensen?

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DREW WILEY

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OK ... a real frayed-brush Pictorialist - is that better? Or do I have to go to the extreme of a sponge applicator, or a broom? No need to get nasty, like how certain f-64 types referred to them as Fuzzy Wuzzies. Anyone for airbrushes?
 

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Well, Greg, Ansel certainly wasn't any kind of real mountain climber like Sella or Washburn. Neither am I, and I certainly know the difference, having had world-class extreme climbers around my dinner table many times. But they did admire how I could haul huge packs full of view camera gear up at least Class 3 pitches; and I had one notable first ascent in my youth. Now it takes me about three months of cogitating before even setting up a paint trim ladder on the driveway.

It's hard to appreciate just how sensitive Ansel was to the light in the Sierra unless one has long bathed in it themselves like I have. No, I don't try to mimic him. I have my own style. But just the other day I pulled out one of my big folio books with his images in it because I was getting homesick for the mountains.
 

GregY

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Regardless of his climbing talents or lack thereof Drew, Ansel Adams did capture the magic of light on the mountains.
 

Hassasin

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Don’t compare him to Man Ray.
On a good day he was Man Ray from Wish.com.

I’m still looking for an example of an actual good Mortensen photo.

I don’t see how one can see aesthetic value in Man Ray and nothing in Mortensen at the same time. Bias aside it makes little sense.
 

Hassasin

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AA vs. Mortensen was never a contest in popularity AA could lose. Wall calendars alone won it for him.

Nothing wrong with having your photo hanging all over, but it does eventually affect how one’s work is perceived. Too much of anything can eventually be … just too much.
 

redbandit

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AA was a supreme darkroom worker and understood the technical aspects of photography better than anybody at this time; Wiliam Mortesen, on the other hand, was a true photographic artist. Everybody admires the skills of the former, but believes to really have the skills of the latter

neither correct NOR correct..

Both had their own private techniques,, but both were using the newest techniques of the day... that 90% of the world CANNOT do without Photo Shop..

AA was using darkroom trickery to remove houses, power lines,, put the full moon over a national mountain that could never happen in real life..

Mortensen was using technique to turn photographs into art that LOOKED and tasted like drawings, sketches, and even etchings.. that wire mesh grid he devised,, was copied by AA.

AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife.

Mortensen is almost at the point of becoming a photographic version of heaven and hell, and why you dont want to be consorting with the devil.
 

z-ark

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A lot of views shared here are based on personal beliefs. If museum quality art is categorized by valuation, many factors are missing not seen by the public. Those factors are by the marketing group, non profits that combine deals with art to boost prices. The Museum then base values on previous sold price but excludes the other tangibles. Once the price is established future buyers influence it with status as investments without knowing previous histories. This also creates the good ol boy network, networking events for your business, contracts, deals, and underworld trafficking or property, brand marketing, and perpetual ROI structure.

Mortensen was a rebel compared to AA but my share is about learning and not critique. He was part of the industry working with the monsters in disguise. Could it be a way for his exposure or did he become one of them? Also he shows a huge contrast from of the dark side with some of most beautiful girls as NUDE Jeanne Craine. Mortensen shot nude color during the prohibition in America when it was not allowed. His peers operated out of Europe which did not have the same laws but still all in B/W. This is what sets him apart from other artists as he blured the line, like crossing physical to spirituality. Have you seen the 1942 photo titled competition of nude Norma Jeane Mortensen by WM. Her birth certificate is spelt Mortenson but her father and grandfather birth and death certificate is spelt Mortensen on paper. Were they related?

The value of art is how viral you can make it, what kind of people do you attract or network from it, and the underlying stories that vary based on peoples perception to discuss. How does the rarity make you feel rather then pointing out the physical.

The only other true color nude photo I seen documented from a American photographer during prohibition is by Cris Alexander who worked for Andy Warhol. Those photos were not discovered until after his death in 2012, not seen by any public for over 80 years.
 

Chuck_P

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Well, Greg, Ansel certainly wasn't any kind of real mountain climber like Sella or Washburn.

I believe on the way up they tethered themselves to each other! It puts a new meaning to the phrase, where we go one we go all..........not just a slow climb up but maybe a fast trip down for everybody.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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neither correct NOR correct..

Both had their own private techniques,, but both were using the newest techniques of the day... that 90% of the world CANNOT do without Photo Shop..

AA was using darkroom trickery to remove houses, power lines,, put the full moon over a national mountain that could never happen in real life..

Mortensen was using technique to turn photographs into art that LOOKED and tasted like drawings, sketches, and even etchings.. that wire mesh grid he devised,, was copied by AA.

AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife.

Mortensen is almost at the point of becoming a photographic version of heaven and hell, and why you dont want to be consorting with the devil.

I wouldn't call what AA did in the darkroom as trickery. It's down to skill. I have never heard of him removing houses and power lines, or "put the full moon over a national mountain that could never happen in real life..." Please tell me which photograph that is! I'd love to know! It is well known that he had the giant LP spotted out in his print of Winter Sunrise, Sierra Nevada, From Lone Pine.
"AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife." This comment is ludicrous and in fact, laughable. I enjoy much of his work, and am in no way fearful of the afterlife... (existing or not!). 🤔
 

Chuck_P

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AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife.
Really now.....show us all how much you don't think of yourself and let us judge who we favor, it'll be entirely objective, I promise....a bold but ludicrous comment aimed at trying to shame anyone who favors AA over some other photographer, whoever that may be.
 

warden

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neither correct NOR correct..

Both had their own private techniques,, but both were using the newest techniques of the day... that 90% of the world CANNOT do without Photo Shop..

AA was using darkroom trickery to remove houses, power lines,, put the full moon over a national mountain that could never happen in real life..

Mortensen was using technique to turn photographs into art that LOOKED and tasted like drawings, sketches, and even etchings.. that wire mesh grid he devised,, was copied by AA.

AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife.

Mortensen is almost at the point of becoming a photographic version of heaven and hell, and why you dont want to be consorting with the devil.
Got any examples of the removed houses?

Your post sure took a weird turn with the last two sentences there.
 

Sirius Glass

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neither correct NOR correct..

Both had their own private techniques,, but both were using the newest techniques of the day... that 90% of the world CANNOT do without Photo Shop..

AA was using darkroom trickery to remove houses, power lines,, put the full moon over a national mountain that could never happen in real life..

Mortensen was using technique to turn photographs into art that LOOKED and tasted like drawings, sketches, and even etchings.. that wire mesh grid he devised,, was copied by AA.

AA is favored by those who think too much of themselves and have fear of the afterlife.

Mortensen is almost at the point of becoming a photographic version of heaven and hell, and why you dont want to be consorting with the devil.

Duh, the full moon is there on the negative. No trickery with that.
 

DREW WILEY

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redbandit - AA wasn't even remotely up to speed with the "latest" and most sophisticated printing techniques. Heck, if you want Fauxtopshoppish tomfoolery, three little girls concocted an infamous composite print before the turn of the Century which fooled even Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes detective series. Color press printing was around while AA was still in diapers, which was far more technically involved than anything he ever did. And as for creative liberty, look at Outerbridge, or the Surrealist movement before him, and how they printed. And then there's Stiegliz's mastery of multiple media, including gravure, all of it way more involved than anything Adams found personally necessary.

Why does everything on this forum need to gravitate towards ignorant extremes, one direction or another. AA was not the apogee of technique; but he did learn to master his own bookends of variables to obtain the best representation of his own sight and feeling with respect to what he saw. Relatively few of his Zonie clones did. It goes beyond mere technique; but technique was a critical tool in eloquently conveying it.

AA did post-blacken the sky in his famous Hernandez Moonrise shot not only for sake of a little more drama, but to disguise the many water-bath development streaks and blotches in the sky, which are more evident in those early prints prior to him selenium intensifying the negative. If there are now more houses and fences around Hernandez than in the original photo it just might be due to 70 years of difference in time, just like how any rural town is likely to enlarge. Ever think about that?

As far as his erasure of LP on the hillside above Lone Pine in his famous sunrise shot there, it involved a literal eraser on the negative to reduce the density, and was for esthetic reasons. But the ruse is still evident if you look closely at the prints, and even in quality book reproductions. But that was hardly anything Photoshoppy. Even P.H. Emerson, who damned dodging and burning ("sundowning") as cheating, sometimes did the same kind of thing, removing annoying bright spots. But that's about the most egregious thing AA ever did.

You want deceptive comps in famous documentary pictures? - study W. Eugene Smith instead. Or in famous landscapes? - look up how Vittoria sella dubbed in climbers on the Baltoro Glacier in Pakistan using a negative of climbers taken in the Alps, and did it so well and seamlessly, that nobody discovered that until the original Baltoro neg was found in recent years and studied up close. And all through the blue-sensitive film days of the 19th C, photographers would make separate exposures of clouds to dub into otherwise blank skies. I don't think Adams ever did that kind of thing. He would enhance clouds via contrast filters and pan film, just like nearly everyone now does.

I probably know that same mountain light better than anyone else on this forum, and understand how Adam's use of it, and of cloud formations, was never faked, in relation to my own impressions. If you had grown up there, and taken hundreds of backpack trips up in the high country with large format film gear yourself, just like I have, redbandit, I doubt you'd be making these silly allegations. Besides, there were often people with him, who could attest to his visual honesty, including the Moonrise shot at Hernandez. I've got my own spectacular moonrise from a different Western desert setting. So do many others. Get outside a little; it actually happens.
 
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Sirius Glass

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redbandit - AA wasn't even remotely up to speed with the "latest" and most sophisticated printing techniques. Heck, if you want Fauxtopshoppish tomfoolery, three little girls concocted an infamous composite print before the turn of the Century which fooled even Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes detective series. Color press printing was around while AA was still in diapers, which was far more technically involved than anything he ever did. And as for creative liberty, look at Outerbridge, or the Surrealist movement before him, and how they printed. And then there's Stiegliz's mastery of multiple media, including gravure, all of it way more involved than anything Adams found personally necessary.

Why does everything on this forum need to gravitate towards ignorant extremes, one direction or another. AA was not the apogee of technique; but he did learn to master his own bookends of variables to obtain the best representation of his own sight and feeling with respect to what he saw. Relatively few of his Zonie clones did. It goes beyond mere technique; but technique was a critical tool in eloquently conveying it.

AA did post-blacken the sky in his famous Hernandez Moonrise shot not only for sake of a little more drama, but to disguise the many water-bath development streaks and blotches in the sky, which are more evident in those early prints prior to him selenium intensifying the negative. If there are now more houses and fences around Hernandez than in the original photo it just might be due to 70 years of difference in time, just like how any rural town is likely to enlarge. Ever think about that?

As far as his erase of LP on the hillside above Lone Pine in his famous sunrise shot there, it involved a literal eraser on the negative to reduce the density, and was for esthetic reasons. But the ruse is still evident if you look closely at the prints, and even in quality book reproduction. But that was hardly anything Photoshoppy. Even P.H. Emerson, who damned dodging and burning ("sundowning") as cheating, sometimes did the same kind of thing, removing annoying bright spots. But that's about the most egregious thing AA ever did. You want deceptive comps in famous documentary images? - study Eugene Smith instead.

Thank you for that expanded clarification.
 

Chuck_P

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redbandit - AA wasn't even remotely up to speed with the "latest" and most sophisticated printing techniques. Heck, if you want Fauxtopshoppish tomfoolery, three little girls concocted an infamous composite print before the turn of the Century which fooled even Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes detective series. Color press printing was around while AA was still in diapers, which was far more technically involved than anything he ever did. And as for creative liberty, look at Outerbridge, or the Surrealist movement before him, and how they printed. And then there's Stiegliz's mastery of multiple media, including gravure, all of it way more involved than anything Adams found personally necessary.

Why does everything on this forum need to gravitate towards ignorant extremes, one direction or another. AA was not the apogee of technique; but he did learn to master his own bookends of variables to obtain the best representation of his own sight and feeling with respect to what he saw. Relatively few of his Zonie clones did. It goes beyond mere technique; but technique was a critical tool in eloquently conveying it.

AA did post-blacken the sky in his famous Hernandez Moonrise shot not only for sake of a little more drama, but to disguise the many water-bath development streaks and blotches in the sky, which are more evident in those early prints prior to him selenium intensifying the negative. If there are now more houses and fences around Hernandez than in the original photo it just might be due to 70 years of difference in time, just like how any rural town is likely to enlarge. Ever think about that?

As far as his erase of LP on the hillside above Lone Pine in his famous sunrise shot there, it involved a literal eraser on the negative to reduce the density, and was for esthetic reasons. But the ruse is still evident if you look closely at the prints, and even in quality book reproduction. But that was hardly anything Photoshoppy. Even P.H. Emerson, who damned dodging and burning ("sundowning") as cheating, sometimes did the same kind of thing, removing annoying bright spots. But that's about the most egregious thing AA ever did.

You want deceptive comps in famous documentary pictures? - study W. Eugene Smith instead. Or in famous landscapes? - look up how Vittoria sella dubbed in climbers on the Baltoro Glacier in Pakistan using a negative of climbers taken in the Alps, and did it so well and seamlessly, that nobody discovered that until the original Baltoro neg was found in recent years and studied up close. And all through the blue-sensitive film days of the 19th C, photographers would make separate exposures of clouds to dub into otherwise blank skies. I don't think Adams ever did that kind of thing. He would enhance clouds via contrast filters and pan film, just like nearly everyone now does.

I probably know that same mountain light better than anyone else on this forum, and understand how Adam's use of it, and of cloud formations, was never faked, in relation to my own impressions. If you had grown up there, and taken hundreds of backpack trips up in the high country with large format film gear yourself, just like I have, redbandit, I doubt you'd be making these silly allegations. Besides, there were often people with him, who could attest to his visual honesty, including the Moonrise shot at Hernandez. I've got my own spectacular moonrise from a different Western desert setting. So do many others. Get outside a little; it actually happens.

That was interesting......thanks
 

Arthurwg

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Why do you think Ansel Adams is better known than William Mortensen? Both have books on photographic aesthetics and techniques. Has “pure photography” won over Pictorialism?


Not sure we're talking about "pictorialism." How about "Bad Pictorialism"?
 

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I might also add that, in terms of clouds and weather, it's exactly in relation to those kinds pancake clouds formations on the horizon that one would expect the kind of brief split lighting conditions evident in AA's Moonrise image. The same type of clouds would have been moving in nearby, just like Adams described, acting briefly to block off most of the incident sun itself, while illuminating just the foreground and its crosses. I had exactly the same thing happen to me out along Great Salt Lake, but not enough to time to even set up my view camera before the lighting was lost. Fortunately, I also had my Pentax 6X7 along. Two minutes at most to bag it all - the brilliant foreground reflections, the rapidly moving gleaming clouds in the background, and the brilliant full moonrise against a nearly totally black sky.

If you want astronomically impossible fake fake Desert sunset images, look at Fatali's Fly Geyser Cibachrome composite, involving three separate registered chromes. The same crescent moon, in the same position in the sky, appears in several of his "iconic"images. But he does the fakery so seamlessly, using pin-registered 8x10 chrome originals, along with true optical enlargement, that no Fauxtoshop trick can equal it. Even in a 40 X 60 inch print, the degree or sheer detail skunks any digital equivalent, especially inkjet-wise. However, his marketing BS, claiming he "waited for the light" many days on end for such a sight is another matter, which only naive spendy tourists would fall for.
 

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Thanks, Drew. I am seeing a lot of color images taken in the redwoods that have me scratching my head. Various qualities of light I have never had the chance to experience myself over the past 40 years of photographing them myself. Enlightening, so to speak...
 

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I really can't understand why people want imitation ice milk all doctored up, when they can have real ice cream. The lighting moods of our woods, especially redwoods, are so varied and majestic on their own, why would anyone want to fake that? Same in the mountains. These people should just leave their cameras home and go out and sit down and study the light hours on end, and soak it in, rather than imagining it. A person only gets one run at it. And if they're spending all their time trying to fake some stereotypical scenic look on their computer, they're missing out on the real experience itself.

Heck, I'm been so taken in by certain lighting moods, that I just stood there an watched its shifting splendor, without even bothering to trip the shutter, even with my darn 4x5 or 8x10 already set up, focussed and composed. Sure, I like prints as memories; but sometimes you just don't want to get distracted from even a second of the actual experience. There will always be another good photo of this or that. I want to live it, first and foremost; then, just maybe, someone else will get the same impression from my prints. The problem with fakery is that it inevitably looks fake to anyone who has experienced the real deal.

People need more respect for what is in front of them. Despite all the problems, it's still a really, really beautiful world. And when it comes to a contest between the actual Creator and the creators of Photoshop color saturation sliders, I'll go with the real deal every time; you can't do better. Only a fool tries to gild the lily.
 
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faberryman

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I looked at the photographs on Fatali's website and it looks like he was doing HDR before HDR was cool. Or maybe it is just super saturation. Whatever it is, it all looks pretty fakey to me. I am sure some people like it though.

www.lighthunter.com
 

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DREW WILEY

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All of that Fatali imaging was done with real chrome film shot in a real 8X10 camera (an early Phillips just like mine) and printed on Ciba in a real darkroom, in his case, with a big DeVere enlarger. You need to see the prints in person to appreciate his skill. The majority of his work is not doctored; certain places in that SW Canyon country really are that amazingly colored. The web, of course, does introduce its own whatever nonsense hyper-coloration, which is a slightly different matter. Of course, I find his tourist-based image content not to my taste; but it's how he makes his living. And his marketing BS is totally unnecessary. And he got into a lot of trouble with Smokey the Bear over an infamous "artificial lighting" incident. But technique-wise, I like to give credit where credit is due. His prints are a thousand times more credible than the king of clumsy fakery, Peter Lik, whose massively Photoshopped inkjet prints look downright amateurishly garish and poorly printed.

But what do I know about that kind of business? I've never sold a print to a tourist in my entire life, even when I was doing shows in Carmel. It was always locals and other photographers, or actual collectors, who bought them. Different ballgame. I'm really more into it as an extenuation of my own actual visual experience - its own reward.
 
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faberryman

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You don't get a pass on fakey looking photographs just because you use real chrome film, a real Philips 8x10 view camera, a big DeVere enlarger, and Cibachrome in a real darkroom. And saying someone's photographs are a thousand times better than those of Peter Lik isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Which is exactly why I tend to avoid tourist rows. But if one is in Lahaina or Vegas or Springdale for other reasons, like a business convention or snorkeling vacation, it's almost impossible not trip over venues like that. And as they say, it's all about location, location, and location; and the higher the lease rate, the more corny and overpriced the displayed artwork seems to become.
 
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