Why are old negs so good?

Mark Antony said:

I've never found the grain to be huge with a combo of EFKE and Rodinal, even in 35mm.
Here is a test of EFKE 25
Adox film test
Here is a portrait on that combo

EFKE 100 in Rodinal on 35mm film
*debunking the myth that Rodinal gives large grain*
Mark

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That shot does not debunk the myth at all. The nature of the image will hide grain almost entirely (sweater texture, dark corrugated iron, hair, pale face etc. Try a scene with subtle greys in the sky.

I use rodinal and like it for some things, but lets be realistic - it DOES give large grain relative to many other developers. Of course you can get fine grain with Efke 25 as someone else pointed out. But it will be finer still with D76, or Xtol or...most develpers. If the enlargement ratio is relatively low then it wont be an issue of course, but that does not mean that the grain is not there.

If the enlargement ratio is relatively low then it wont be an issue of course, but that does not mean that the grain is not there.

Rodinal at lower dilutions say 1:25 for me doesn't give any larger grain than D76. I've tried side by side shots with the same film and camera cut the film in half and processed one half in ID11 the other in 1:25 Rodinal.
You know what- I couldn't tell the difference in large prints. So while Rodinal may give more grain in certain circumstances it isn't a given fact that it gives LARGE grain my point is it IS relative to subject, grain after all is perceived by the user.

Tom Stanworth said:

That shot does not debunk the myth at all. The nature of the image will hide grain almost entirely (sweater texture, dark corrugated iron, hair, pale face etc. Try a scene with subtle greys in the sky.

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Let's be realistic here. Some of us actually take photographs that don't always have a sky in them! The photo posted is/was not significantly grainy. P3200TMZ is an example of something that can be grainy - his example was not.

I use rodinal and like it for some things, but lets be realistic - it DOES give large grain relative to many other developers. Of course you can get fine grain with Efke 25 as someone else pointed out. But it will be finer still with D76, or Xtol or...most develpers. If the enlargement ratio is relatively low then it wont be an issue of course, but that does not mean that the grain is not there.

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It also doesn't mean it's even a significant issue in the first place. Perhaps if grain-freaks would stop breaking out the microscope anytime a piece of 35mm film shows up there would be less emphasis on "grain" in general. To me, the grain discussions become so pedantic at times that we might as well be discussing megapixels.

The world used to look better in 'the olden days'.

Whether you think grain is important/relevant/desirable is not to be confused with how large or visible it is. Of course some people may not take many pics with sky or other smooth grey tones in, but it does not change the effect that Rodinal has on grain, only how visible it is in your photos.

I am amazed that you can get comparable grain from Rodinal (all things being equal) compared to D76. This does not square at all with my findings.

I am not a grain hater at all, just pointing out as inaccurate the assertion that Rodinal is not a fairly grainy developer. It is, but if you start with a film that is incredibly fine grained, it should be fairly obvious that the grain will still remain relatively small... even if relatively larger than with many other developers. If you shoot subjects that naturally hide grain or enlarge them relatively little, then once again it matters not. If you want grain, then so much the better.

I often add Rodinal to Xtol to increase grain and bite. Its contribution is immediately obvious and tends to result in negs somewhere between rodinal and Xtol alone. This can be very handy, giving you two extremes and some in between.

None of my comments were related to the important/desirability of grain, only the effect that Rodinal has on it compared to other developers.

Sure Tom
I understand. Rodinal does give slightly more defined grain than say Xtol with a given emulsion- no argument. my statement was this:
Rodinal does not give HUGE grain.

You see my findings are that at lower dilutions say 1:25 Rodinal gives similar grain to ay ID11 (in fact on a 12x16 from 35mm HP5 I can't tell them apart)
I think the assertion that Rodinal is a grainy developer is false, it doesn't give huge grain when compared with other common developers, especially with careful exposure and processing.
I have pictures on medium speed films that show comparatively little grain in Rodinal even in the sky.
Of course there may be some speed loss and you may have to resort to less agitation but in my experience the statement "Rodinal gives HUGE grain" is false, slightly more defined grain than a fine grain developer possibly but not huge.
I don't want this to be a Church of Rodinal vs fine grain dev argument, if you find it too grainy OK I find in practice it is little different to ID11/D76 with my modus.
YMMV as they say
Regards
Mark

We who like Rodinal do so because it has something besides obvious grain. Some time ago. I thought I had found a simple way to reduce the grain while keeping the difficult-to-describe but good part. Add some sodium ascorbate. It's better IMO than adding sulfite. A teaspoon per liter of 1+50 Rodinal will do. If you cant find the ascorbate, mix 1 tsp ascorbic acid with 1/2 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in some of the water and let it quit fizzing before you add the rest of the water and the Rodinal. This liter will now be as active as Rodinal 1+25. I can only say that the ascorbate is noted as a surface developer, which may explain its unexpected contribution. Maybe you'll like it, maybe not. In any case, don't forget to use sodium ascorbate or make your own with the baking soda, or the pH will be WAY too low.

gainer said:

We who like Rodinal do so because it has something besides obvious grain. Some time ago. I thought I had found a simple way to reduce the grain while keeping the difficult-to-describe but good part. Add some sodium ascorbate. It's better IMO than adding sulfite. A teaspoon per liter of 1+50 Rodinal will do. If you cant find the ascorbate, mix 1 tsp ascorbic acid with 1/2 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in some of the water and let it quit fizzing before you add the rest of the water and the Rodinal. This liter will now be as active as Rodinal 1+25. I can only say that the ascorbate is noted as a surface developer, which may explain its unexpected contribution. Maybe you'll like it, maybe not. In any case, don't forget to use sodium ascorbate or make your own with the baking soda, or the pH will be WAY too low.

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Gainer, not that it heavily matters - but would you say that this is similar to the XTOL+Rodinal mix? Of course the ingredients for XTOL aren't exactly cut and dry, but I'm sure some of them are control elements:

Part A:

• Sodium sulfite
• Sodium metaborate, tetrahydrate
• Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid pentasodium salt
• 4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone

Part B:

• Sodium sulfite
• Sodium isoascorbate
• Sodium metabisulfite

(taken from the Unofficial XTOL page)

clayne said:

Gainer, not that it heavily matters - but would you say that this is similar to the XTOL+Rodinal mix? Of course the ingredients for XTOL aren't exactly cut and dry, but I'm sure some of them are control elements:

Part A:

• Sodium sulfite
• Sodium metaborate, tetrahydrate
• Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid pentasodium salt
• 4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone

Part B:

• Sodium sulfite
• Sodium isoascorbate
• Sodium metabisulfite

(taken from the Unofficial XTOL page)

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It might be similar in results, but has additional ingredients, especially the ingredients of Part A. Ascorbate and isoascorbate are the same to film, but the iso- is not sold as vitamin. Their molecules are mirror images.

In this use, I'm guessing the ascorbate is analogous to hydroquinone in serving to regenerate oxidized p-aminophnol sulfonate. This regeneation explains the greater activity of the mixture. I haven't tested hydroquinone, but now I think I shall.

Rolleijoe said:

Here are 2 shots of the same building, same day, within minutes of each other. Processed together in Rodinal. I'd say the Efke has a more profound effect with the red brick than the Plus-X, and just as fine a grain if not better. I'd say the effect is more than dark gray! Although the Plus-X does appear sharper, it probably is, but I was using a bad scanner as well.

Both printed on Varycon Fotokemika Fiber paper.

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It looks like dark gray to me.