Why are my developers failing?

[removed account4]

If as you say you've had problems with other developers I'd first stop using the distilled water, if it's coming from a Grocery store it's not necessarily even distilled it may well be de-ionised and even then not properly.

Also try using a plastic tank it is just possible you have hidden corrosion in the top of a stainless steel tank, unlikely but you need to find the cause of the failure.

Ian

i agree with ian
it isn't the developer but your water ...

xtol is good stuff for some people, i never could get used to it
( and i used it for a handful of years ) ...

 

[Leigh B]

It has already been suggested that stainless steel tanks can leak out iron ions which will catalytically and quickly destroy ascorbic acid.

That won't happen with any stainless steel equipment that's been properly passivated.

All of the name brands have certainly undergone that process during manufacturer. The cheap junk may not.

- Leigh

 

[Leigh B]

But the leader of the roll has considerably lower density than the test-leader...

That indicates no in-camera problem, like incorrect exposure. The leader should be max density even if the roll is completely unexposed.

I'm also having identical failures with homebrew developers, so something is happening that's not XTOL's fault.

As you say, it's not XTOL's fault, contrary to the thread title.

I have several tanks and graduates, and have been using various graduates, always with this result.

You have a contamination problem.

First off, buy a new set of graduates, label them "Developer", using them only for same.
I have a full set of graduates and beakers that I use only for developers in general,
plus a full set used only for Diafine Part A, and another set used only for Diafine Part B.

Fixer is tenacious stuff, and fixer residue can remain even if not visible. It will ruin the developer.

Obviously you can't switch tanks in the middle of the process (unless you're doing sheet film), so you should thoroughly soak the tanks in hot water
for an extended period of time (perhaps an hour) to remove any fixer residue. There was a darkroom cleaner available, but perhaps no longer made.

- Leigh

 

[albada]

I am the OP. Thanks for the suggestions! I even got a PM with an idea (thanks Ian C).
I've read this thread and was busy all day taking these suggestions. All have failed! Here's what I tried:

• Three kinds of water. Two brands of distilled, and tap water.
• Cleaned all equipment in hot soapy water, scrubbing everything well.
• Used different sets of graduates.
• Paterson tank (plastic).
• Different SS tank and lid (both new, BTW).
• Both XTOL and home-brew dev.
• 220 ml XTOL diluted up to 320 ml (w/ longer time).
• 320 ml undiluted XTOL, instead of the usual 220 ml. This worked fine for me 5 months ago.

I measured some densities of leaders with the densitometer. Leaders developed solo (i.e., leader-tests) had typical densities of 3.1. Leaders on the rolls had densities of about 2.4. Leader-density is supposed to be about 3.0.

I've dev'd 11 rolls in the last couple of weeks troubleshooting this issue, and four rolls today. I am the reason Kodak is staying in business.

Anyway, I conclude that the water is not at fault -- tried 3 kinds. I doubt the equipment is contaminated -- all was cleaned well, and different sets were used. XTOL is not at fault -- my home-brews fail identically. The only thing in common that I can think of is my changing-bag. And fixer has been in that bag, running test-strips as part of my home-brew testing. Maybe fixer dust is getting on the neg's? That bag needs replacing anyway, so here's a good excuse. Anyone have recommendations on a good bag or tent?

BTW, I discovered that the plastic caps for SS tanks can be disassembled for cleaning. The light-baffle is held on by five round snaps. Pry each off with a screwdriver to remove the baffle. Snap back on after cleaning.

Thanks again for thinking about this and responding.

Mark Overton

 

[Tom Stanworth]

Yes, the OP was very clear about his suspicions lying elsewhere, unlike the stories about 'Xtol being a problem and unreliable' which always surface. Its frustrating that such anecdotes are almost never qualified with when they occurred and if 1L packets were involved. The 1L packet issue topic has been beaten to death and, as far as I am aware, there have been no failures related to the use of 5L packets when adhering to the instructions and without other factors at play. 1L packets were discontinued about 15 years ago.

While I understand that some would rather use devs that go yellow as they age, many that do so go bad in 1 month or two.... yet Xtol, if stored properly, will reliably last many times longer. Unless you have a contamination issue, Xtol just does not drop dead within the manufacturers storage description.

While Kodak may say the leader test does not work I disagree and understand why they would not say that it did (how could they commit to something with so many variables?). If 10ml of stock will develop a section of fully exposed leader in the bottom of a graduate in reasonable time, there should be plenty of active ingredient in a tank to develop a roll of normally exposed film, as long as you ensure 100ml stock per roll.

Due to its incredible consistency and, in my experience, robustness, I consider Xtol to be the most reliable developer I have ever used. Having used three brands of mineral water (cleaner than tap water in Kabul) and water form several bore holes (one of which was contaminated with black sand and needed to be left to stand), with the nastiest house plumbing, I have not had a failure. I have used 1yr old developer at 1+2 without problem once and 6-9 month or older developer countless times. Then again, I take the same precaustions I would for any developer that might be stored: dedicated brown bottles.

Back to the OP, have these homebrew devs been Xtol related i.e. Mytol?

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

If everything is covered then, try to adjust dev time to compensate for lower density.

BTW I hope that you did not dump 4 bags of Xtol 5L. This is a bit crazy. You can also check to see if its all the same batch number and call in to see if there was a mess up at the factory? Were bags punctured? Was powder free flowing and not caked?

 

[albada]

Back to the OP, have these homebrew devs been Xtol related i.e. Mytol?

Yes, this home-brew is a modification of Mytol to replace the ascorbate with the easier-to-obtain ascorbic acid (vitamin-C). I also dropped pH from 8.2 to 8.0 to insure finest grain. Here's the one-litre formula:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 450, align: center"]

Sodium sulfite
80 g


Ascorbic acid
10.3 g


Sodium metaborate
5.9 g


Dimezone S
0.2 g (or 0.15 g of Phenidone)


[/TABLE]


​

Target pH is 8.00. 8 minutes at 20C for Tmax-400 (a little more for Tri-X).

Except for the sulfite, this one-litre formula can be mixed as a concentrate in 30 ml of propylene glycol (1,2-propanediol), yielding 40 ml of a long-lasting concentrate. To use, you'd mix-in the concentrate and sulfite. I also have a couple of other home-brew ideas I'd like to pursue, but first I need to find out what's causing these failures! I thought my chemicals went bad, until my new batch of XTOL failed the same way.

Mark Overton

 

[Kirk Keyes]

WHY is there fixer in your changing bag???

 

[albada]

If everything is covered then, try to adjust dev time to compensate for lower density.

BTW I hope that you did not dump 4 bags of Xtol 5L. This is a bit crazy. You can also check to see if its all the same batch number and call in to see if there was a mess up at the factory? Were bags punctured? Was powder free flowing and not caked?

I'm speculating that the fault is a contaminated changing bag, only because I see no alternatives. If not, then I'll be completely mystified.

The XTOL was a recently purchased packet-pair for 5L, and it was fine -- no damage or caking. My home-brews are failing the same way, so the XTOL is fine. I am doing something wrong to cause these failures.

Mark Overton

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

Wait.. So how many bags of Xtol did you buy? I hope you know that each is supposed to be completely mixed and not separated by volume or weight.

Also, fixer in the bag may might as well do it. Do another test in a dark closet or bathroom instead of assuming.

 

[clayne]

I dunno, even with there were remnants of fixer in the changing bag it's extremely unlikely it would affect the film other than random micro-spotting. I cannot possibly see, even with it being generally not recommended, fixer residue in a changing bag nuking entire rolls.

Something else is going on here.

 

[Rudeofus]

One important experiment would be trying a developer that doesn't use ascorbate as dev agent. There are plenty of PQ or even MQ devs to pick from. If PQ works and PC doesn't, then we are much closer to finding the root cause of the problem. If both cause problems, we won't waste time on chasing down iron ions.

About fixer: note that most commercial fine grain developers use silver halide solvents so a few fixer remnants in the changing bag shouldn't change the results all that much.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I would do this:

Mix up 5L fresh Xtol stock as per the instructions with no deviation. Use a 5L water container that is used for the ultra cheap table water from sueprmarkets
Use plastic bottles (of any kind) that have never had anything but water (or nothing in). Use the same water than was in the 5L water bottle for doing so.

Use plastic containers for development and ensure all have been cleaned thoroughly.

If it fails, then consult a mystic!

If it does not, use the same stock and whatever developing containers you were using when it previosuly failed. At least you will know your stock is good.

If it still does not fail, it narrows down the problem to:

The mixing container
The storage containers
The water.

You can now deal with each variable in turn, but the key IMO is to establish some stock you know is good.

 

[albada]

Re title. I must apologise for the title of this thread making it appear that this is XTOL's fault. Something like "Why are my developers failing?" would have been better.
Re bags of XTOL: I only bought one bag of XTOL, the one for 5L. That one bag consists of two packets, labelled A and B.

WHY is there fixer in your changing bag???

A good question.
I've been designing new developers, and discovered that an easy way to develop test-strips is:

(1) Fill three small graduates with developer, stop and fix.
(2) Put those graduates in a tray, slide it all into a changing bag, and dev-stop-fix inside the bag.

This system lets me dev a 1-2 frame strip of 35mm. This works well but isn't perfect. Fixer gets onto the clip holding the neg-strip (or my fingers), which in turn gets into the bag. Instead, I'm going to make a plastic holder to keep the strip flat, and drop that holder into an SS tank instead of using a reel. That way, I can dev a short strip in an SS tank with a minimum of chemistry. I run many tests, so it's a great help to be able to quickly dev short strips.

Like other posters, I thought that tiny amount of fixer-dust in the bag wouldn't hurt anything. And indeed this might not be the problem at all.
My next step is to load the film in a dark closet as Newt_on_Swings suggested. (BTW, I had a darkroom many years ago, but haven't built one in this house.)
If that fails, I'll mix a PQ developer as Rudeofus suggested.
If that fails, I'll ... switch to digital?

Mark Overton

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Where are you located? Maybe there is an APUG member near by that would let you take your film and developer to their darkroom and develop with their equipment. It would be nice to determine if the problem is with your developer solution, or elsewhere. Or maybe ship enough developer to someone to try. I don't think mixed Xtol would need a hazmat sticker, but don't know for certain.

I'm sorry if I missed this info, but have you had success with other types of develpers?

 

[Trasselblad]

Yeah, digi(cough)al may be a better option. Nothing wrong with that! After all, it doesn't make a difference one way or the other.

Now, if you do want to solve your development problems and feel the rush of self-satisfaction (like I do at times, I suggest this:

1. Toss your current batch of developers. We shall start with a clean base-line.
2. Wash your receiving vessels, graduates etc. properly.
3. Calibrate your thermometer(s). Easily done by using a few and looking at how "they agree" in a cup of water.
4. Make sure your cameras shutter and diaphragm is working correctly.
5. Shoot a test roll.
6. Mix chemicals according to instructions. Pour in to stock vessel. Let sit at least overnight. No need for distilled water, cursing or other ceremonies. Just be clean and accurate.
7. Load tank in bag. That one would equally do with a wash and dry first (your description of developing strips inside the bag with fixer and all sounds like someone trying to prepare for the Wimbledon tennis tournament inside a cupboard, waste of time and terribly awkward).
8. Develop at 68F/20C according to standard values. Leave lid on at all times!
9. Wash or stop, fix, wash and enjoy the rush!

Simple, innit?

 

[albada]

Where are you located? Maybe there is an APUG member near by that would let you take your film and developer to their darkroom and develop with their equipment. It would be nice to determine if the problem is with your developer solution, or elsewhere. Or maybe ship enough developer to someone to try. I don't think mixed Xtol would need a hazmat sticker, but don't know for certain.

I'm sorry if I missed this info, but have you had success with other types of develpers?

Thanks for the reminder; I just updated my profile to show that I'm in Escondido. That's in San Diego county, California. Nathan Tenny is in this area; maybe I'll ask him if I run out of options. Shipping is certainly a possibility as well.

Mark Overton

 

[albada]

This evening, I dev'd another roll using undiluted XTOL (6.5 min @ 21C) in a SS tank, but loaded in a dark closet instead of the changing bag.
Same result: Developer was yellow-orange when poured out, and neg's are thin.

Numbers from the densitometer:

Leader developed separately in leader-test: 2.97
Leader on the roll: 2.35

​

I'm mystified.
Maybe I'll take one suggestion to mix a PQ developer (instead of ascorbate), to see if something here is destroying ascorbate.

Mark Overton

 

[Bob-D659]

do a clip test with the developer first, pour it in the tank without a film, agitate for normal processing time and see what the colour is when you pour it out. Then do another clip test.

BTW, SS tanks are slowly destroyed by strong alkaline solutions.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Can you try a larger tank and more vigorous agitation to eliminate the possibility the small tank is restricting the flow across the full roll?

 

[SuzanneR]

Re title. I must apologise for the title of this thread making it appear that this is XTOL's fault. Something like "Why are my developers failing?" would have been better.
Re bags of XTOL: I only bought one bag of XTOL, the one for 5L. That one bag consists of two packets, labelled A and B.
Mark Overton

I changed the thread title for clarity.

 

[ic-racer]

But the leader of the roll has considerably lower density than the test-leader,

It always will be the case. Just develop for more time when doing a whole roll and move on.

 

[K-G]

I changed the thread title for clarity.

Is it possible to add a litle RENAMED marker when a title is changed. When I didn't find the old thread, I first got a bit worried about censorship but after some searching I found my way back.
I can only agree with all the xtol praise as my old 10 litres jar ( about 2.6 US Gallons ) has served me perfectly for over three years just by being replenished according to instructions.

Karl-Gustaf

 

[albada]

SuzanneR: Thanks for fixing the title.

It always will be the case. Just develop for more time when doing a whole roll and move on.

But a leader density-drop of 0.6 is too much, isn't it? The clip-test is about 3.0, whereas the roll's leader is 2.4. That's a two-stop loss of density. Ouch!
I remember five months ago, Tmax-400 neg's had normal density and the used developer had just a hint of yellow. Now, neg's are thin and used dev is a stronger yellow-orange.
Something has changed. Yes, I could simply boost the dev-time and move on, but I want to find out what's causing this.

Bob-D659 had the good idea of doing a mock development with no film, but with clip-tests before and after. I hope to do that this evening -- that should tell me if equipment is contaminating the brew.

Mark Overton

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

I've been following this thread and would like to chime in, obviously the obvious has been discussed and in some cases tried so I'm going to go over the wee details.

As we all know (and you should if you use Xtol) Xtol is very sensitive to any iron in the water. This iron can come from any of many sources, and a little here and a little there can add up.

I'd check *very closely* each and every tank and reel, looking for any sign of rust or oxidization. Any amount of rust hiding in the spot welds of the reels can do it. I'd also use a Brita style water filter for your next batch of Xtol. That really seems to cut out the iron in my case.

Also consider that you may be adding in excessive oxygen when mixing, keep an eye on your style of stirring so you don't make bubbles but aim for a 'flow' style of mixing.
Like I said, going over the details..