Who is using a flash for copying negatives with a dSLR?

runswithsizzers · Aug 28, 2021

I have a fair amount of experince using my digital camera to copy my slides and negatives using a LED panel for the light source. (You can see my present film copy rig <here>) I would like to switch to a flash for the light source, but...

Obviously, a continuous light source is still needed for focusing. So, I was wondering how others have solved the problem of switching back and forth between the continuous light source and the flash?

Are most people positioning the flash so it is aimed directly at the film, or is it preferable to aim the flash at some kind of reflective surface at a 45 degree angle to the film?

Photos of successful flash setups would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Pieter12 · Aug 28, 2021

I have not done this, but try using a strobe that has a modeling light. But It might not be bright enough for critical focus. Better yet, if you can dedicate a rig or copy stand for the purpose, set the focus with a strong continuous light source, swap out for the strobe and leave it. You should not have to change the focus again unless you are cropping the negative. And a strobe light is so much more intense than continuous light that you should be stopped down enough to cover any slight variations in focus.

Moose22 · Aug 28, 2021

Thanks for moving this to its own thread.

I tried it once, using a quick and dirty setup. Two of my speedlights (it's what I had on hand) pointed into a box lined with white paper as a bounce card and a topped with some diffuser material to get the light even. It worked, but the focusing was a pain. Color was great though. I tested a slide.

An alternative I'd though of was building a box with an always on bulb. That PLUS a flash would provide significantly more light, but I have yet to do so. I'll be following this thread. I haven't done it yet.

Currently I'm using a flat tablet style light source and a film holder, and have just started working with this rig. But a brighter light and best possible CRI still interests me as an improvement.

** Edit to add: the bulb I chose was a Solux 4700K for the always on. Not sure I need that high CRI for a focus light, as I have not built this rig yet.

runswithsizzers · Aug 28, 2021

Pieter12 said:
I have not done this, but try using a strobe that has a modeling light. But It might not be bright enough for critical focus. Better yet, if you can dedicate a rig or copy stand for the purpose, set the focus with a strong continuous light source, swap out for the strobe and leave it. You should not have to change the focus again unless you are cropping the negative. And a strobe light is so much more intense than continuous light that you should be stopped down enough to cover any slight variations in focus.

Unfortunately, the option of stopping down to get more depth of field is more limited than you might think.

My experience with copying 35mm film indicates that loss of sharpness due to difraction starts to become noticeable around f/11-13, was objectionable at f/16, and was totally unacceptable at f/22. (Theoretically, diffraction probably started affect image quality at some aperture larger than f/13, but that is where I first noticed it in my testing.)

If I am copying a 35mm negative with my APS-C camera, the required magnification is approximately 0.65x. Using the macro depth-of-field calculator on <this website> indicates that at f/11 and 0.65x magnification, the DoF is 1.81 mm. If someone is using a full frame digital camera to copy 35mm film, the magnification is approximately 1x - and at f/11 the DoF would be 1.41mm. So any variation in focus would need to be very slight, indeed.

MattKing · Aug 28, 2021

Electronic flash also effectively eliminates problems with most vibrations.
The quality of any focusing aid light can be truly mediocre, as long as the brightness makes sense.
Although a good focusing light might be better if you are doing volume work and wish to limit eye strain.
A good electronic viewfinder or tethered setup may work as well with lower light levels.

wiltw · Aug 28, 2021

Given that copying negs/slides will entail one specific magnification factor depending upon sensor size of copying camera (1:1 with FF, or 1/1.6 with APS-C), the distance of focus will be FIXED, and the need to refocus for each shot is minimal. Of course, copying mounted slides will be different from unmounted neg/slide, as the image being copied will be closer to focal plane by 1/2 mount thickness.

Pieter12 · Aug 28, 2021

runswithsizzers said:
Unfortunately, the option of stopping down to get more depth of field is more limited than you might think.

My experience with copying 35mm film indicates that loss of sharpness due to difraction starts to become noticeable around f/11-13, was objectionable at f/16, and was totally unacceptable at f/22. (Theoretically, diffraction probably started affect image quality at some aperture larger than f/13, but that is where I first noticed it in my testing.)

If I am copying a 35mm negative with my APS-C camera, the required magnification is approximately 0.65x. Using the macro depth-of-field calculator on <this website> indicates that at f/11 and 0.65x magnification, the DoF is 1.81 mm. If someone is using a full frame digital camera to copy 35mm film, the magnification is approximately 1x - and at f/11 the DoF would be 1.41mm. So any variation in focus would need to be very slight, indeed.

Typically, macro lenses have less diffraction, but at 1:1 there is light loss due to extension, too. You should still be able to use a smaller stop than with continuous light unless you want to run the risk of loss of sharpness due to vibration blur.

mshchem · Aug 28, 2021

OK I'm here now I'LL try not to cause havoc

So starting simple. I have a D850, I have old school Nikon PB-4 bellows, I have a Nikon dedicated 105mm bellows lens, and lastly a dedicated Nikon slide copier.

Could I simply put this together and point it at a softbox on my studio flash?

I like the point of eliminating camera shake. That's huge IMHO.

runswithsizzers · Aug 28, 2021

mshchem said:
OK I'm here now I'LL try not to cause havoc

So starting simple. I have a D850, I have old school Nikon PB-4 bellows, I have a Nikon dedicated 105mm bellows lens, and lastly a dedicated Nikon slide copier.

Could I simply put this together and point it at a softbox on my studio flash?

I like the point of eliminating camera shake. That's huge IMHO.

I agree with you and @MattKing that one of the main advantages of using an electronic flash is reducing/eliminating camera shake that often results when trying to work with a dim light source (and therefore long shutter speeds).

As for your Nikon setup, I cannot comment, as I am not familiar with Nikon gear. But the first thing to check, is this: Does your slide copier/bellow/lens combination allow the lens and film to be positioned at the necessary distances to result in the correct magnification required for your needs. If the D850 is full frame, and you are copying 35mm film, and if the slide copier is designed to work with that focal length lens, then I would expect it to work. Where most people get into trouble with most slide copiers from pre-digital days is if they are trying to use a crop sensor digital camera. Often times that won't work because the slide copiers were made to work at 1:1 with full frame and not with crop sensor magnification.

runswithsizzers · Aug 28, 2021

wiltw said:
Given that copying negs/slides will entail one specific magnification factor depending upon sensor size of copying camera (1:1 with FF, or 1/1.6 with APS-C), the distance of focus will be FIXED, and the need to refocus for each shot is minimal. Of course, copying mounted slides will be different from unmounted neg/slide, as the image being copied will be closer to focal plane by 1/2 mount thickness.

I agree with the theory 100% but in actual practice the focus distance may not be as "fixed" as we might like, especially if it is necessary to move the focusing light and replace it with a flash. Previously, I have been using the film/slide holders that came with my old Minolta film scanner and just laying that directly on top of my LED light box (link to photo in my opening post). Obviously, if I had to move the light source for any reason, that might disturb the relationship between the camera and the film, so I would want to recheck my focus.

So the reason I started this thread is to learn how people are actually setting up the lights and film holders so they can focus, and then switch to flash for the exposure - without needing to worry about disturbing the focus.

Since I am using a copy stand to hold the camera, I think I am going to need to make some kind of platform to hold the film which is independent from my light source.

wiltw · Aug 28, 2021

Watch this... Slide copiers like this have existed for many decades.

mshchem · Aug 28, 2021

runswithsizzers said:
I agree with you and @MattKing that one of the main advantages of using an electronic flash is reducing/eliminating camera shake that often results when trying to work with a dim light source (and therefore long shutter speeds).

As for your Nikon setup, I cannot comment, as I am not familiar with Nikon gear. But the first thing to check, is this: Does your slide copier/bellow/lens combination allow the lens and film to be positioned at the necessary distances to result in the correct magnification required for your needs. If the D850 is full frame, and you are copying 35mm film, and if the slide copier is designed to work with that focal length lens, then I would expect it to work. Where most people get into trouble with most slide copiers from pre-digital days is if they are trying to use a crop sensor digital camera. Often times that won't work because the slide copiers were made to work at 1:1 with full frame and not with crop sensor magnification.

I need to try this. The bellows lens doesn't have a helical, it focuses from infinity to 1:1. Whether this 50 year old lens is up to modern standards???. If I can find the room and time I may try using a Beseler 45 mxt chassis, mounting the camera inplace of the enlarger head, rigging a negative stage where the baseboard would sit, and then a softbox (or some sort of flash) below the negative stage.
I'm starting to warm up to this whole thing. I really like the idea of flash. No camera shake and pure constant color temperature.
I just finished replacing the light seal in a Hasselblad back, my hands aren't as steady as I remember, I think the flash idea is 1st rate.
Thanks for the help, Mike

MattKing · Aug 28, 2021

mshchem said:
OK I'm here now I'LL try not to cause havoc

So starting simple. I have a D850, I have old school Nikon PB-4 bellows, I have a Nikon dedicated 105mm bellows lens, and lastly a dedicated Nikon slide copier.

Could I simply put this together and point it at a softbox on my studio flash?

I like the point of eliminating camera shake. That's huge IMHO.

Probably.
The different shape of the digital bodies sometimes means that you can't put that package together properly. But if everything fits physically - i.e. the DSLR doesn't run afoul of the adjustments on the bellows unit - then it should work.
You would want to rig up something to keep standardized the position of the light source in relation to the camera.
I have a couple of friends with Bowens slide copying equipment, and the shape of that equipment and the shape of their Nikon DSLRs limit the magnification and focusing range.

PhilBurton · Aug 28, 2021

mshchem said:
OK I'm here now I'LL try not to cause havoc

So starting simple. I have a D850, I have old school Nikon PB-4 bellows, I have a Nikon dedicated 105mm bellows lens, and lastly a dedicated Nikon slide copier.

Could I simply put this together and point it at a softbox on my studio flash?

I like the point of eliminating camera shake. That's huge IMHO.

Can you mount your Nikon D850 on the PB-4 bellows? I also have this bellows (and the PS-4 slide copier ...) but I can't mount my Nikon D3.

mshchem · Aug 28, 2021

PhilBurton said:
Can you mount your Nikon D850 on the PB-4 bellows? I also have this bellows (and the PS-4 slide copier ...) but I can't mount my Nikon D3.

I think so. It worked with my D200. If I fool around with setting up an enlarger type copy stand I would use a macro lens.

mshchem · Aug 28, 2021

runswithsizzers · Aug 29, 2021

Surely someone has figured out how to use a flash as the light source when digitizing film on a copy stand, and can share details?

madNbad · Aug 29, 2021

runswithsizzers said:
Surely someone has figured out how to use a flash as the light source when digitizing film on a copy stand, and can share details?

Check out the Negative Lab Pro blog. There are all kinds of answers about light sources and often photos of users set ups.

runswithsizzers · Aug 29, 2021

madNbad said:
Check out the Negative Lab Pro blog. There are all kinds of answers about light sources and often photos of users set ups.

Good idea. I had almost forgotten about that forum.

mshchem · Aug 29, 2021

I've been thinking about this. Back in the early 20th century Pako made a contact printer. Main use was making real photo postcards (RPPC) 3 1/2 × 5 1/2 inches. The printer resembles a desk. The machine's lightsource was under the desktop, next a glass plate where you put the negative emulsion side up. To use, one placed a piece of paper (postcard paper) on the negative, then pulled down the platen which turned on the lamp.

So take an extra enlarger, put a digital camera with a nice macro lens where the enlarger head would be. Make a "stage" for the film, up to 8x10", use negative carriers when useful, then build a light box below with the appropriate flash (maybe a Nikon flash that connects wirelessly?). A simple led light for focusing.

My problem is finding the space.

250swb · Aug 30, 2021

Seriously, you guys use a flash? If you have a copy stand and a macro lens and a negative holder all you are missing is one of these

https://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/artikel.php?nr=2453

Use the self timer of your camera to deal with any camera shake as the shutter is tripped. You can find cheap copy stands on eBay, and cheap really is 'good enough' unless you have somebody dancing the tango in the same room. You can use an enlargers negative holder if it will lay flat, there are dedicated negative holders on the market made to sit on the Kaiser SlimLite, or you can make your own. And of course you can scan with your camera almost any negative format.

runswithsizzers · Aug 30, 2021

250swb said:
Seriously, you guys use a flash? If you have a copy stand and a macro lens and a negative holder all you are missing is one of these

https://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/artikel.php?nr=2453

Use the self timer of your camera to deal with any camera shake as the shutter is tripped. You can find cheap copy stands on eBay, and cheap really is 'good enough' unless you have somebody dancing the tango in the same room. You can use an enlargers negative holder if it will lay flat, there are dedicated negative holders on the market made to sit on the Kaiser SlimLite, or you can make your own. And of course you can scan with your camera almost any negative format.

Yes, I know all that. What I don't know is if using a flash will offer any improvement over my present workflow. And I wont know till I try it. If you have actually tried using a flash as a light source, then I would be interested in what you have to say about it.

My first LED panel was not the Kaiser SlimLite brand, although it looked very similar. Something close to f/11 provides the best compromise between sharpness and depth of field for me, and using my camera's native ISO of 200, my shutter speeds were around 1/10th of a second to 1-second. At that time, I was using an inverted tripod to hold the camera, and even when using the camera's time delay shutter release, I felt like the images might be slightly soft due to vibrations. Also, that first LED panel did not specify a CRI. I was struggling to get good color conversions from that setup, although it is unclear how much of that was due to the questionable light source, and how much was due to my lack of experience with inverting color negatives.

Next I switched to a better LED source said to have a CRI of 95. It was also brighter, allowing shutter speeds of around 1/60th to 1/125th. I replaced the tripod with a $160 copy stand (Alzo) which was more rigid, but still nowhere near what I would call rock solid. As a retired person, I can't really afford rock solid. I have seen complaints about famous name copy stands which cost twice what I paid. At 1/60-1/125 the Alzo is probably "good enough" - but at 1/10th to 1-second? Ehh? Flash exposure speeds look very attractive when you don't have total confidence in the stability of your copy stand.

For someone just starting out - if they already have a flash but no LED light panel - then how much sense does it make to pay $160 for the Kaiser SlimLite? And what kind of shutter speeds can you get using it? So, yes, 'seriously' I think it does make sense to consider a flash for anyone who may want sharper images (shorter exposure times) or higher color accuracy compared to some (many?) LED panels.

madNbad · Aug 30, 2021

Check your Alzo Copy stand. I was using one for quite a while and was continually having sharpness problems. Part of the scan would be right on and part of would be soft. Bought some cheapie camera levels and found my problem:

The quick release plate doesn't latch into the baseplate very tightly and the camera tilts out of alignment. I swapped it out for an Arca-Swiss plate and solved the problem.

tomkatf · Aug 30, 2021

I use one of these with a Nikon 750 and an APO Componon HM MC 90/4.5... eliminates a lot of problems and is extremely versatile...

runswithsizzers · Aug 30, 2021

madNbad said:
Check your Alzo Copy stand. I was using one for quite a while and was continually having sharpness problems. Part of the scan would be right on and part of would be soft. Bought some cheapie camera levels and found my problem:

View attachment 283954

The quick release plate doesn't latch into the baseplate very tightly and the camera tilts out of alignment. I swapped it out for an Arca-Swiss plate and solved the problem.

My first Alzo copy stand had to be returned because the plastic gear track was broken, and the second one had some issues related to the baseplate. The camera screw was grinding into the backside of the baseplate - but I was able to make it work after adding a thin washer to create more clearance. The front-to-back alignment was actually not bad on mine - little or no sag, requiring only some fine tuning with the adjustment screws. But I am happy to learn Arca-Swiss plates can be substituted if necessary.

Who is using a flash for copying negatives with a dSLR?

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Who is using a flash for copying negatives with a dSLR?

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