White dots

albireo · Oct 12, 2020

pentaxuser said:
It looks as stark a choice as that to me since Foma do not believe it has a problem so there would appear to be no further help to come from Foma
pentaxuser

I'm not sure you followed the whole discussion. Foma very much acknowledges the problem and provides an explanation ('hardened anti-halation' layer - as per email to myself and countless others). This has been discussed through and through in a couple of threads on here, too.

Further to that, Foma states the problem is with a particular batch (021056-3) and has been corrected in newer batches (for example, 021256-03).

Honestly, it couldn't be simpler:

1. contact Foma with evidence of purchase and evidence of fault
2. ask for replacement.

Seems to me like excellent customer service, contrary to what you are insinuating.

pentaxuser · Oct 12, 2020

@RoboRepublic yes, when I pre-soak the problem largely[1] disappears. Just two weeks ago I decided to see if this was a temporary thing and processed one roll without pre-washing. The white dots returned!

The above is Bormental's statement. He then goes on to say he is getting fed-up with Foma It would appear that Foma's "solution " in terms of washes applied to one batch and you clearly stated that batch to Bormental. Unless he hasn't bothered to check that all of his is that batch then I can only assume that he believes that the problem remains and that Foma does not believe /acknowledge it has a problem

Hence my presentation of a stark choice for Bormental. I am trying to see the problem from his point of view and given his point of view which I tried to feedback to him, what his choices in terms of a solution are

My comments have nothing to do with Foma's customer service. I do not use Foma so cannot comment but others have said that they have had no problem. Nor do I see a problem with the shots Bormental showed us which I also mentioned in my post. However Bormental has, from his point of view, a problem with Foma film which Foma appears not to acknowledge, from his point of view hence my attempt to lay out his choices based on what he has said to us

I am not, repeat not, insinuating anything about Foma or its customer service.

pentaxuser

albireo · Oct 12, 2020

Thanks for clarifying and apologies for misinterpreting.

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

@albireo where do you find the batch number? Thanks.

albireo · Oct 12, 2020

Вormental said:
@albireo where do you find the batch number? Thanks.

it's etched on the bottom of the cardboard box:

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

thank you!

MattKing · Oct 12, 2020

If you are ever looking for that on a 120 Kodak film (at least the black and white film), they also imprint it in really tiny characters in the rebate near or adjacent to the last frame.
I don't know if Foma does anything similar.

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

Thanks, Matt. The reason I was asking because I rarely buy Foma-branded Foma. Most of the time I'm dealing with Freestyle's EDU Ultra 100 which we all know is the same thing, but the rebate on it says ULTRA 100. I also have a habit of unpacking all my rolls upon arrival, throwing away boxes and storing rolls in a 100ft 135 packaging with some silica gel inside, so I can't apply @albireo advice yet.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2020

Вormental said:
Thanks, Matt. The reason I was asking because I rarely buy Foma-branded Foma. Most of the time I'm dealing with Freestyle's EDU Ultra 100 which we all know is the same thing, but the rebate on it says ULTRA 100. I also have a habit of unpacking all my rolls upon arrival, throwing away boxes and storing rolls in a 100ft 135 packaging with some silica gel inside, so I can't apply @albireo advice yet.

Then I'll pass on this suggestion:
Check the boxes before unpacking.
Store like batch numbers together.
Tape a representative exterior box showing the batch number and Develop Before date on either the inside or outside of each storage container.
But this highlights another problem. Any information you have about the Foma labelled situation won't apply to the Freestyle stuff, unless there are batch numbers with it that match.
Your problem could be entirely different, particularly if it has some strange relationship with the rebate printing step.

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

MattKing said:
But this highlights another problem. Any information you have about the Foma labelled situation won't apply to the Freestyle stuff, unless there are batch numbers with it that match.

To clarify: I mostly buy from Freestyle, but when I order something from B&H I like to add some film too, as their prices are often better and you get free shipping, so I had some Foma-branded Foma 100 in my stash too, I see zero difference between the two. Both suffer from the "white dots" syndrome to the same degree.

Athiril · Oct 12, 2020

Having one of these will make your life a lot easier and you can set the flow rate really low and time how long it takes the water to come out clear.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2020

Вormental said:
To clarify: I mostly buy from Freestyle, but when I order something from B&H I like to add some film too, as their prices are often better and you get free shipping, so I had some Foma-branded Foma 100 in my stash too, I see zero difference between the two. Both suffer from the "white dots" syndrome to the same degree.

But you will have no way to track problem batches - clearly a problem with films that might have problem batches.

Вormental_old · Oct 13, 2020

Nope... I'm too bored to track batches, I want to shoot and develop film which is currently available for sale.

RoboRepublic · Oct 13, 2020

If we are not patient and procedural with out efforts we will not find a repeatable solution. Fomapan is a great film, and I'd like to solve the issue. It is too expensive on time to go out shoot and develope using an uncontrolled methodology only to hope for the best.

MattKing · Oct 13, 2020

Вormental said:
Nope... I'm too bored to track batches, I want to shoot and develop film which is currently available for sale.

If nothing else, tracking batches permits you to control film inventory, and use the oldest film first.
In the past, I would have suggested that tracking batches was only important for second and third tier films, but in modern times even the biggest manufacturers have problems.

Вormental_old · Oct 13, 2020

Fresh shipment from B&H today, the batch is 021056-3, i.e. the defective one, thank you @albireo
So yeah... we have reasons to be mad at Foma for not recalling it.

albireo · Oct 14, 2020

Вormental said:
Fresh shipment from B&H today, the batch is 021056-3, i.e. the defective one, thank you @albireo
So yeah... we have reasons to be mad at Foma for not recalling it.

That sucks, sorry to hear. Probably worth contacting them to let them know that people are aware of this. I'd say take a test roll and send a few scans and a description of the issue to foma@foma.cz. They will definitely replace - hopefully at some point they'll recall this batch too.

Вormental_old · Oct 14, 2020

Thanks, I sent them an email.

Mesabound · Oct 25, 2020

I've also been suffering from a similar issue as this, though for me it has persisted across several rolls of HP5+ and now Acros II. Only difference between the rolls is that I mixed fresh fix and stop bath (1.5% glacial acetic acid dilution) with distilled water for the Acros, whereas in the HP5+ I mixed my chems with tap, and I used Rodinal w/ Acros (D76 and PMK Pyro w/ HP5+). All final rinses w/ distilled water. Only washing w/ tap.

Also of note:

- I'm using a Jobo CPA2
- I've done a good amount (probably 4-5x as much as b&w) of C-41 and E6 in the last couple months, and have never had an issue like this crop up across those processes
- Not a scanning issue. The worst marks are clearly visible on the negs when viewed w/ a loupe+light table

Here are a few examples:

Acros II (Rodinal)

HP5+ (D76)

HP5+ (PMK Pyro)

paolod · Nov 8, 2020

Has anyone noticed what color the spots are on the negative? I think I might have the same problem but in my case the spots are red. Here's an example:

Seems unlikely that the spots are the anti-halation since they are red instead of blue?

I am using Arista Ultra 100, 2 1/4 x 3 1/4" sheets, emulsion # 021754-03. I presoak for 1 minute in tap water which comes out bright greenish blue. Develop in D-76 stock (which was mixed about a month ago and used a couple times), 6 minutes at 68f. Stop with water, fix with Ilford Rapid Fixer 5 min. The spots did appear when using fresh fixer for the first time.

bnxvs · Nov 8, 2020

Let's turn to the Dark side - black dots )))
2 developers: PQ self-made concentrate (1) and P.Gainer's Metolal (2), film - Fuji HR-U (x-ray, green), same fresh neutral fixer.

There is no anti-halation layer on this film (2-side emulsion). Both negatives were obtained from a single 18x24 cm sheet cut in half (12x18).

37th Exposure · Nov 8, 2020

I love the results I get with Foma film, but here we go again with the QC issues. Is there any reason why they cannot get the standards up to Ilford or Kodak? A smaller and newer company (Adox) can do it or so it seems so why can’t a company as old as Foma? If they have to raise the price so be it but with Foma now approaching the price of the fail safe (in my experience) Ilford film I don’t see why I shouldn’t just forget Foma altogether. I just bought a bunch of the affected rolls of F100 120 before the problem became known. I thought Foma had upped their QC. I should have just listened to my gut and bought FP4 instead. Not the same results but at least I can shoot with peace of mind.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 8, 2020

37th Exposure said:
I love the results I get with Foma film, but here we go again with the QC issues. Is there any reason why they cannot get the standards up to Ilford or Kodak?

Don't quote Kodak on that: they possibly had and are having many more qc problems than Foma...

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 8, 2020

37th Exposure said:
but with Foma now approaching the price of the fail safe (in my experience) Ilford film

Maybe from your local distributor.
Foma is much cheaper than Ilford.

Donald Qualls · Nov 8, 2020

The red dots are an interesting additional piece of information -- those would of course show as white in a print, and light gray to white if scanned as grayscale (scanned as color and converted might be different). The only thing I can think of that would be red in Foma film (the antihalation dye is blue in 120 and sheet sizes; the gray base does that job in 35mm) is one of the panchromatizing dyes. Some of the dyes used to give red sensitivity are red in color; erythrosine? is used for ortho films, probably panchro as well, and based on its name is probably also red.

Add this on top of the issues with antihalation dye not dissolving correctly and it points to a QC problem with a chemical supplier; chemicals clumping before they get into the gelatin and onto the base. There are fairly simple solutions to chemical clumping, but you have to know it's happening before you'd apply them, because they add additional cost to the manufacturing process...

White dots

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