White dots

Grim Tuesday · Aug 6, 2020

I suspect the differences you guys are reporting are related to your local water pH and mineral contents. Whatever the antihalation layer is made of may be more or less soluble in different cities water supplies, and I think that should actually be expected.

albireo · Aug 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I've been presoaking everything since I started doing so as part of tempering for C-41, but it's nothing like 20 minutes.

Sorry, there has been some confusion. The Foma representative did _not_ recommend presoaking for 20 minutes _every_ Foma roll.

He recommended presoaking for 20 minutes the rolls from the _specific_ faulty batch I was inquiring about.

The faulty batch number, that requires 20 minutes presoaking is the following: 021056-3

In my experience, other batches do not show the problem and do not require 20m pre-soaking (though I'm sure a little won't hurt)

Donald Qualls said:
For Foma 120 films, because of the strong blue dye,

This is odd. Foma in 120 does not leave a blue dye after developing IME. It leaves a green dye. It is a darker green if you develop with Rodinal, and a lighter, pea-green if you develop with D-76/Xtol.

May I ask the expiry date of the Foma rolls you found to have blue dye? Are these Foma or Arista EDU? Could it be that Foma used to use blue dye but has not switched to green dye? Could it be that Arista repackages old batches of Foma and these leave a blue dye instead of green?

FWIW, the defective batch number above (021056-3) produces a green dye.

Donald Qualls · Aug 7, 2020

I've only ever used the .EDU Ultra rebranded Foma. And what I recall as blue, under my darkroom lighting, might be the same dye you call green. I've developed much of the film in Parodinal, but as noted, I've taken to presoaking, so the dye now pours off with the presoak (and a couple rinses, until it runs clear).

Bormental · Aug 7, 2020

When I saw this color I called it blue, my wife says it's green. Its one of those in-between, saturated "ocean" colors. It's more bluish when it's just water, but more greenish when it's Xtol.

albireo said:
Sorry, there has been some confusion. The Foma representative did _not_ recommend presoaking for 20 minutes _every_ Foma roll. He recommended presoaking for 20 minutes the rolls from the _specific_ faulty batch I was inquiring about.

No confusion here, the instructions were very clear. I did 20 minutes just to be safe, and it worked well. I'm out of Foma at the moment, so I'm hoping the "bad batch" is gone, that's why I'll be shrinking from 20 to two. But I will be always pre-soaking Foma from now on, their AHU clearly benefits from it. Besides, I don't want blue/green in my replenished Xtol.

Jonnymm · Aug 9, 2020

Hi all!

Same issue here for me with 4x5 Fomapan 100, batch number is 2023-03. Going to test again later to see if I have the same issue. In the image below it was X-Tol 1:1 and Adostop stop bath but from the sounds of it will just do a water stop next time and fresh Ilford Fix too. I was possibly thinking it was due to not fully dissolving part A of Xtol but hopefully it's the stop bath issue?

Edit: Also forgot to mention I did soak this for around 4 mins so will do the longer 20 min pre-soak to see if that helps.

albireo · Aug 9, 2020

Looks like the same issue - I would definitely contact Foma providing a description of the issue, the stock number, how you processed, and 100% crops of problematic areas. That's what I did and they were responsive, explaining it was an issue with the anti-halation layer. They quickly replaced my rolls (the issue I had was with 120 rolls) and didn't require the problematic ones in exchange. Rather, they suggested the '20 min soak' trick in case I wanted to keep using them anyway.

Donald Qualls · Aug 9, 2020

Jonnymm said:
Edit: Also forgot to mention I did soak this for around 4 mins so will do the longer 20 min pre-soak to see if that helps.

Best to change only one variable at a time. Either pre-soak longer, or use a neutral wash instead of stop bath. I haven't seen any of this on my .EDU UItra since starting up processing again, and I'm using an acid stop (Kodak Indicator Stop Bath that's a dozen years old, still yellow). The only time I've seen issues with acid stop was after carbonate alkali developers (like Caffenol) on soft emulsion films (like Foma and Forte), presumably due to gas evolution as the carbonate reacts with the acid stop. In those cases, it was black spots (pinholes) surrounded by lighter halos (locally increased density due to shrinkage of the gelatin around the pinhole), not white spots.

Jonnymm · Aug 10, 2020

So did a test today (by no means highly scientific so take from it what you may) but wanted to figure out what the story was, so took 4 shots (4x5) of a plain wall outside to try different combinations to see what works.

I thought it might be the pre-soak not being long enough, so tried that. Thought then it might be the Adostop stop bath I use, so tried water to no avail. And then finally tried it with Rodinal instead of X-Tol with water as a stop bath and still the issue. Now I'm lost as to what the issue might be.

FishyFish · Sep 8, 2020

These are the instructions I received from Foma on how to develop the affected batch. Note the section regarding the ethanol / water rinse stage for the developed negatives. Unfortunately, ethanol doesn't seem to be that cheap to buy, so I'll probably not try it and just spend tohe money on some fresh film instead.

In case of your already exposed & processed negatives we recommend to you the following procedure to remove the residues of remaining anti-halo layer:

1) Prepare working solution in minimum with 40% of ethanol (optimally 70%).
2) Put carefully the films into spiral´s developing tank or a spiral with the film into similar transparent container with enough ethanol solution, with emulsion layer inside of the cylinder tank/container.
3) Keep the negatives in this solution approximately 45 minutes and make moderate movement each 4-5 minutes.
4) Wash sheets of the negatives in running water from tap for 2-3 minutes.
5) Make standard drying including wetting agent (FOTONAL).

If you may decide to use also other films from the same emulsion number, we advise you to follow this procedure of processing:

1) Exposed films put inside of the spiral´s developing tank.
2) Pour distilled water or water without minerals into this developing tank and keep the films in this solution for 20-30 minutes. Occasional inversion is convenient. This solution, ca. 600 ml, is possible to use in maximum for 2 rolls.
3) Immediately after pouring the water out you can fill the tank by developing working solution keeping standard conditions of developing, best using more alkaline developer, e.g. FOMADON R09.
4) After developing we recommend to stop process just by water bath, best running filtered water, in minimum for the time of 30 seconds in water´s temperature 12-18° C. Using acidic stop bath like FOMACITRO and others is not convenient in this case, because there are needed alkaline baths to help with dissolving the hardened anti-halo layer.
5) Standard fixing.
6) Wash the strips of the negatives in running water for 20-30 minutes (according to higher or lower temperature).
7) Use ethanol solution and other steps (1-5) as described in previous paragraph.

Donald Qualls · Sep 8, 2020

You might see if your local liquor store carries "Double Tvarscki" -- it's 160 proof (80% v/v) ethanol labeled as vodka. I used to drink it occasionally when I was in college. Much cheaper than Everclear back then.

Of course, that was near enough to forty years ago, so the product may no longer exist, and it's a niche product anyway, so only larger liquor stores are likely to carry it (I was in a college town, they went through a good bit there), but it's worth checking. The minimum 40% they give, however, is just ordinary vodka, which can be quite cheap if you don't care how it tastes.

Bormental · Sep 8, 2020

I honestly do not believe their "affected batch" story. Ok, perhaps they had a batch where it was even worse, but these films are generally susceptible IMO. I continue to shoot Foma and I continue to run into this problem. Pre-washing and developing at a higher temperature helps. When I forget and do not pre-wash I get these at 20C. The most recent example is a roll I purchased in early August.

Love the look & price, so I don't mind.

sterioma · Sep 8, 2020

Thanks for the heads up.

I happen to have bought 5 rolls from that batch. Developed the first one last night, and noticed some unusual black spots (on the negative); they do look bigger than the samples you've shown here, so it may be some other issues of my own doing.

I have just contacted Foma just in case.

RoboRepublic · Sep 30, 2020

Just wanted to chime in here to say: I, too, have very prevalent white dots on 120 roll film. I'm sitting on five rolls from B&H night this August and would love to get to the bottom of this problem.

The amount of dottage, seems to vary frame to frame and is not as apparent in 5x7. Both, the roll and two sheets of film were shot and developed the same day, in the same chemistry at 20C with a 1 minute, single presoak at 23C

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 1, 2020

What about using only distilled water for all stages, inlcuding rinsing?
I recall some time ago, reading the instructions of Rollei Retro 100 Tonal. There was written that due to the sensitizer used, if the film was to be processed in tap water white spots would result.
Maybe this is just that case...

Bormental · Oct 1, 2020

@Alessandro Serrao Tried that, using distilled water for everything including the wash. Did not help.

RoboRepublic · Oct 2, 2020

@Bormental Do you still have this problem? It sounds like it went away with the 20 minute pre-soak.
Some questions:
1. Is it one long presoak for 20
2. is it multiple washes till it runs clear, then a 20 minute presoak?
3. What temperature are you developing (if higher is better)

I'm using (somewhat old) dd-x at 8 minutes at 20C

Bormental · Oct 2, 2020

@RoboRepublic yes, when I pre-soak the problem largely[1] disappears. Just two weeks ago I decided to see if this was a temporary thing and processed one roll without pre-washing. The white dots returned!

What worked best for me, was two 10-minute pre-washes at 30C with constant stick agitation. I am sure this time can be shortened with experimentation.

[1] These dots do not ever completely disappear for me, but they lose intensity rapidly with pre-wash and end up looking more like slightly more irregular grain particles.

RoboRepublic · Oct 8, 2020

Just reporting back here to say, the second roll at DD-X @ 22C for 7 minutes has better results, but only slightly.
I did two soaks at 32C 15 minutes minutes each, and a final quick rinse to make sure the anti-halation layer was all gone (water running clear)
You'll have to download the image here to see the dots, its so regular, it just seems as white grain: https://imgur.com/a/zp0vZgM

albireo · Oct 8, 2020

RoboRepublic said:
Just reporting back here to say, the second roll at DD-X @ 22C for 7 minutes has better results, but only slightly.
I did two soaks at 32C 15 minutes minutes each, and a final quick rinse to make sure the anti-halation layer was all gone (water running clear)
You'll have to download the image here to see the dots, its so regular, it just seems as white grain: https://imgur.com/a/zp0vZgM

Dots or no dots - have to say - such a beautiful portrait of your adorable pup!!

RoboRepublic · Oct 8, 2020

Thanks, dogs are infinitely easier to photograph than people. This one here is 8 weeks, and only recently heard a Pentax67 shutter go off for the first time

paddycook · Oct 8, 2020

First time poster just chiming in to say I've recently had this problem with Fomapan 100 in 120

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

Just developed a couple of rolls of Fomapan 100 in 120 format. I pre-soaked it for only 3 minutes with some agitation at room temp, and was rewarded with this (full size scans):

Those were the first two shots on a roll, i.e. they were closer to the middle of the reel. And here's the last shot on the same roll, on the edge of the reel. You can find a few (and I cleaned a dozen biggest ones), but this shot is dramatically cleaner because, I suspect, it got agitated more during the pre-soak, as I used the stick.

I am starting to get annoyed. Fomapan keeps selling a broken product.

albireo · Oct 12, 2020

Once again, according to the Foma rep I contacted on the matter, the issue described in this thread only affects Fomapan 100 in 120 batch number: 021056-3

Following his advice, I am now testing the first rolls from a lot of 20 rolls from a newer batch: 021256-03.

This is absolutely perfect and does not - I repeat does not - show any issues in my workflow.

Big kudos to Foma for immediately replacing the whole lot of rolls from the faulty batch I had purchased with this new lot - great customer service. And the new batch gives absolutely beautiful results.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 12, 2020

Вormental said:
Sample one

Sample two

It could be your fixer. But if you've already ruled out fixer as the source of this problem, you might want to consider sending a roll to a lab for developing. Ideally, take a roll, you develop half of the roll yourself and send the other half to the lab and then compare.

pentaxuser · Oct 12, 2020

Bormental, I can't see the problem with any of the shots you have shown us but no-one else has said this so I'll assume it is only me who can't see a problem.

So let's assume there is a problem.

1.You can stick with Foma and use your pre-washes( NB I'd be wary of trying a wash at above 30C but your attitude may be what have you got to lose and its your film and pictures. If 30C+ works then assuming others have the same issue, you may well do others who may suffer from the same problem a favour which is great

2. Abandon Foma film.

It looks as stark a choice as that to me since Foma do not believe it has a problem so there would appear to be no further help to come from Foma

pentaxuser

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