Which speed to use by night with Cinestill 800?

[Huss]

Did you scan those images or did someone do it for you? Did you edit them or post them as you got them?

 

[Kowloon]

My lab sent me the jpeg and I did not touch nor edit anything.

 

[Huss]

Ok, this is a common lab issue, from the days before film was scanned. They are set up to look at an image and give an 'exposure' that is 18% grey i.e. an average. If you have a lot of black in the scene, they will automatically lighten it, messing it up. You need to edit the scans.

 

[LolaColor]

You could ask your lab to re-scan the negatives and tell them that you'd like your pics to look more the reference images you shared in the first post. A scan is like a digital photograph of a negative and lab scanners are set up by default to do a kind of auto exposure and auto white balance of each frame. A good scanner operator (person who works in the lab) can override these auto adjustments but you have to tell them what you want.

 

[Huss]

I did this one for you to give you an example. It took maybe 15 seconds

 

[Huss]

 

[runswithsizzers]

I went out 2 nights ago and I just got the results. Well, it is mostly crap, but I am still learning.

Made with Nikon F + 50mm f:1.2 and no tripod

As far as I can understand, I would say that I have allowed too much light inside my camera. I have used the app LightMeter on my phone to try it, the issue is that you can only choose to have the result of one value on it. I needed to know which shutter speed to use, so I had to set the aperture and the ISO first, but having no idea which aperture I needed, I almost always set it at f/2, hence the disgusting results

The whole point of using a light meter is so the meter will tell you what aperture and shutter speed to use at a given ISO. So if you had 'no idea which aperture' to use, then something isn't right.

There are three variables that determine exposure: ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. If you choose any two of those variables, the meter should tell you how to set the third. If there was plenty of light (or if you were using a tripod) then you could pick the aperture first, and then use whatever shutter speed the meter tells you to use. But if you choose f/11 and the meter tells you to use something like 1/4 second, that is no good because you would need a tripod for that. So for hand-holding at night, choose the shutter speed first - something you can hand-hold like 1/60 or 1/125 sec - and let the meter tell you which aperture to use.

Is this the Lightmeter phone app you are using? (there are several apps with similar names, so this may not be the one you used).

If so, set the ISO (800, right?), then look above the dial at the aperturtes (f-stops). Notice each f-stop lines up with a shutter speed as shown on the brown dial. In this screen shot, f/2.8 lines up with 1/60 second, f/4 lines up with 1/30 sec, etc. So, if you set your camera lens to f/2.0, then set the shutter speed to 1/125 sec. Or you could use f/2.8 and 1/60 second - or f/4.0 and 1/30 second. Those are all the same exposure, so pick whichever combination you want. That is, each pair of settings that line up on this meter will let in the same amount of light to expose the film. Make sense?

Just for fun, next time you are out check the lightmeter you showed in post #12 against your phone app to see if you get approximately the same readings.

I suggest you take notes for each exposure until you get this figured out.

Also, be sure you get your negatives back from the lab.

 

[Huss]

he just needs to edit his scans.

 

[grain elevator]

from <this web site> and reproduced below:

In the chart above, an EV of 9 has been assigned for neon

There's your simple answer. Not need to meter (and in fact metering this can be tricky) for negative film as neon lights have all similar brightness. EV 9 means 5.6 and 1/125 or equivalent at ISO 800. A little more probably doesn't hurt with negative film and you might get a bit of the environment.

 

[MattKing]

he just needs to edit his scans.

The scans could be better, but I expect that the film is also a bit over-exposed.
Bright lights in front of a dark background will fool most meters. The meter ends up giving a result that will lighten the background, which also lightens the lights as well. Then when you combine that with automated scans, you get disappointing results.

 

[brbo]

No, meters are not fooled (most meters are too dumb to be fooled), users (interpreting meter's readout) are.

But as many here said, the real problem here is inadequate/lack of post-processing after scanning (apart from poor choice of film).

 

[Huss]

Ya, I think the pics are ok. Just edit them a little.

 

[Kowloon]

I have tried to edit the pictures with what I have on windows by default, looks better. Thanks a bunch to all of you. That'll do for now until I figure out how to obtain the below results, which is what I am after.

If so, set the ISO (800, right?), then look above the dial at the aperturtes (f-stops). Notice each f-stop lines up with a shutter speed as shown on the brown dial. In this screen shot, f/2.8 lines up with 1/60 second, f/4 lines up with 1/30 sec, etc. So, if you set your camera lens to f/2.0, then set the shutter speed to 1/125 sec. Or you could use f/2.8 and 1/60 second - or f/4.0 and 1/30 second. Those are all the same exposure, so pick whichever combination you want. That is, each pair of settings that line up on this meter will let in the same amount of light to expose the film. Make sense?

Ok now that makes sense. I thought that the amount of light wasn't the same actually. The app I was using is this one.

The scans could be better, but I expect that the film is also a bit over-exposed.
Bright lights in front of a dark background will fool most meters. The meter ends up giving a result that will lighten the background, which also lightens the lights as well. Then when you combine that with automated scans, you get disappointing results.

I tend to agree with you, which is why I think that using a light meter under those circumstances might not be a good idea.

There's your simple answer. Not need to meter (and in fact metering this can be tricky) for negative film as neon lights have all similar brightness. EV 9 means 5.6 and 1/125 or equivalent at ISO 800. A little more probably doesn't hurt with negative film and you might get a bit of the environment.

Is this a rule of thumbs to start working with or can I just stick to this for a whole shooting session? Light can really differ in Hong Kong. A neon can be in a really bright street among powerful LED lights signs + the shops, or hidden in a really dark alley.

 

[Huss]

I have tried to edit the pictures with what I have on windows by default, looks better. Thanks a bunch to all of you. That'll do for now until I figure out how to obtain the below results, which is what I am after.


View attachment 315424

View attachment 315425

View attachment 315426





Ok now that makes sense. I thought that the amount of light wasn't the same actually. The app I was using is this one.

View attachment 315427



I tend to agree with you, which is why I think that using a light meter under those circumstances might not be a good idea.



Is this a rule of thumbs to start working with or can I just stick to this for a whole shooting session? Light can really differ in Hong Kong. A neon can be in a really bright street among powerful LED lights signs + the shops, or hidden in a really dark alley.

What also makes the examples you show “good” is excellent composition and interesting subject matter. Also they are sharper so that .person’s technique is better. No camera shake and/or better focus.

 

[MattKing]

I tend to agree with you, which is why I think that using a light meter under those circumstances might not be a good idea.

It is more a case that using a light meter in these situations is quite tricky. The basic challenge is to be certain you are measuring what you need to measure, without having your reading overly influenced by other parts of the scene.
The meter can be very useful in measuring the ambient light - the light that may be around when the neon lights are not in the scene. It can be really effective taking these sort of photos just after dusk.
Vancouver in the ~1960s - 1970s, on Kodachrome, courtesy of Fred Herzog:

 

[Huss]

I don't get it, all this confusion about how difficult it is to meter lights. I literally just point my camera - that has auto exposure! - at the scene and push the button.
The point of shooting lights is if that is your subject, that is what you meter for. That is all you need to know!
So all I do is aim my p&s camera - yup, p&s where I let it do everything - at my scene and take a pic. And they come out great.
Stop over thinking this. And Kowloon frankly you are making this hard on yourself by using a camera w no meter, and using your phone to meter, and trying to figure things out. I know its cool using an old F or F2 w no meter, but if you buy a $25 Nikon N75, you will get awesome pics, correctly exposed and in focus. Or pretty much any 35mm camera with AE...

I took these with a p&S where all I did was point the camera. I didn't get all worked up about exposure. So I'm not pretending it's my skills. It's not. The camera did the work.
No tripod either. What's the fun/point of using a 35mm camera if you are dragging a tripod around? If I'm using a tripod, I'll be using it with a medium format or larger camera.

 

[film_man]

I don't get it, all this confusion about how difficult it is to meter lights. I literally just point my camera - that has auto exposure! - at the scene and push the button.

You're in the wrong forum mate, people in this forum only use manual cameras and no auto exposure as that needs a battery and it is automation and the devil will come take your soul if you have batteries in your camera and you are probably the rich 1% if you can afford $1 batteries for your camera because you just spent $15 on a roll of 36 shots and the only thing worse than a sinner using auto exposure is a heathen with autofocus.

 

[runswithsizzers]

I don't get it, all this confusion about how difficult it is to meter lights. I literally just point my camera - that has auto exposure! - at the scene and push the button.
The point of shooting lights is if that is your subject, that is what you meter for. That is all you need to know!
So all I do is aim my p&s camera - yup, p&s where I let it do everything - at my scene and take a pic. And they come out great.
Stop over thinking this. And Kowloon frankly you are making this hard on yourself by using a camera w no meter, and using your phone to meter, and trying to figure things out. I know its cool using an old F or F2 w no meter, but if you buy a $25 Nikon N75, you will get awesome pics, correctly exposed and in focus. Or pretty much any 35mm camera with AE...

I took these with a p&S where all I did was point the camera. I didn't get all worked up about exposure. So I'm not pretending it's my skills. It's not. The camera did the work.
No tripod either. What's the fun/point of using a 35mm camera if you are dragging a tripod around? If I'm using a tripod, I'll be using it with a medium format or larger camera.

I would be curious to learn what films were used for these?

 

[Huss]

I would be curious to learn what films were used for these?

Top two Portra 400. Venice one is Cinestill 800. Bottom two Superia 400. My mad skillz were pointing the camera and pushing the button.

 

[Huss]

You're in the wrong forum mate, people in this forum only use manual cameras and no auto exposure as that needs a battery and it is automation and the devil will come take your soul if you have batteries in your camera and you are probably the rich 1% if you can afford $1 batteries for your camera because you just spent $15 on a roll of 36 shots and the only thing worse than a sinner using auto exposure is a heathen with autofocus.

I like the way you think.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Top two Portra 400. Venice one is Cinestill 800. Bottom two Superia 400. My mad skillz were pointing the camera and pushing the button.

Thank you. Do you usually meter these at box ISO?

There is only one Cinestill 800 and it is tungsten balanced, right? If so, I am a little surprised to learn the 'Venice' scene was shot on tungsten film, because it has the look I would expect from daylight film. I have not shot any Superia, but those last two shots inspire me to want to try some.

 

[Huss]

All shot at box speed. The giveaway that the Venice pic was shot on Cinestill 800 are the big halos around the light sources due to the lack of the antihalation layer.

 

[Kowloon]

Bought a Nikon U2. Much better.

 

[Huss]

Bought a Nikon U2. Much better.

Congrats and excellent results! The U2 is the N75/F75. I had one, excellent camera. Just let the camera do its thing et voila!

 

[AZSkip]

I did not know taking photos of neon signs was a thing but now I am looking forward to trying my hand at it. Thanks to Kowloon for starting the thread and to those who have contributed.

I have a Canon A-1. Would aperture priority, shutter priority, or program mode be a better choice for this? From what I’ve found on the ‘net, the A-1 has one metering mode, “centerweighted average metering.”