Which Leica M?

[chuckroast]

I am a long time monochrome shooter in all formats from 35mm to 4x5.

I already own a just-CLAed Leica IIIf with both an uncoated 50mm f/3.5 collapsible Elmar and a 50mm f/2 collapsible Summicron.

I am contemplating the purchase of an M body. They are all stupidly expensive and I doubt I really can justify a modern M6 or similar camera.

My heart has always been with the M5 (I know, I'm weird, you're not the first to notice) but I am told that the M5s are maintenance nightmares, that the rollers go bad and no replacements are available, that the meters fail, etc.

So .... Leicanistas - what are the tradeoffs in your hive mind between the M2, M3, M4, M4-2, and M4-P? I plan to use my existing LTM lenses via an adapter ring.

Feel free to make the case that I really don't need an M body at all

 

[GregY]

I am a long time monochrome shooter in all formats from 35mm to 4x5.

I already own a just-CLAed Leica IIIf with both an uncoated 50mm f/3.5 collapsible Elmar and a 50mm f/2 collapsible Summicron.

I am contemplating the purchase of an M body. They are all stupidly expensive and I doubt I really can justify a modern M6 or similar camera.

My heart has always been with the M5 (I know, I'm weird, you're not the first to notice) but I am told that the M5s are maintenance nightmares, that the rollers go bad and no replacements are available, that the meters fail, etc.

So .... Leicanistas - what are the tradeoffs in your hive mind between the M2, M3, M4, M4-2, and M4-P? I plan to use my existing LTM lenses via an adapter ring.

Feel free to make the case that I really don't need an M body at all

Chuck I'm particularly fond of the M2 ....it was the first Leica I owned. I like the uncluttered viewfinder.....& i use a 35mm lens as standard so the M3 never worked for me. Over the years i've owned every model up to and including the MP.....when they were in production. I prefer the feel of the brass gears on the M2,3,4 over the modern M4-2,4-P, 6, MP....with their steel gears & I far prefer the black paint to the black chrome models. I'd suggest an M2 or M4.....
There are lots of M2s listed on Ebay at $12-1300 & M4 at $15-1700. You can't go wrong with either of those.
Although i owned several M6 and an MP the meter didn't matter to me and i hated the cluttered viewfinder with all the superimposed finder lines.
My black M4 is my real keeper...& though i work more in medium format, I won't sell it and i continue to get good results with it.

 

[chuckroast]

Chuck I'm particularly fond of the M2 ....it was the first Leica I owned. I like the uncluttered viewfinder.....& i use a 35mm lens as standard so the M3 never worked for me. Over the years i've owned every model up to and including the MP.....when they were in production. I prefer the feel of the brass gears on the M2,3,4 over the modern M4-2,4-P, 6, MP....with their steel gears & I far prefer the black paint to the black chrome models. I'd suggest an M2 or M4.....
There are lots of M2s listed on Ebay at $12-1300 & M4 at $15-1700. You can't go wrong with either of those.
Although i owned several M6 and an MP the meter didn't matter to me and i hated the cluttered viewfinder with all the superimposed finder lines.
My black M4 is my real keeper...& though i work more in medium format, I won't sell it and i continue to get good results with it.
View attachment 358801

Interesting. I had sort of independently come to much the same conclusion: An M2 or an M4, for much the same reasons you cite.


Can you say a bit more about why you prefer the black paint over the chrome finish?

 

[GregY]

Interesting. I had sort of independently come to much the same conclusion: An M2 or an M4, for much the same reasons you cite.


Can you say a bit more about why you prefer the black paint over the chrome finish?

Just the stealth factor.... of black, and the patina over time....

 

[Pieter12]

I have an M5 and I love it. How much film are you going to have to shoot before the rollers go bad? Is an inoperative meter going to make the camera unusable? It is a fine camera and mostly can still be serviced.

If I did not have the M5, I would opt for an M4, but probably not the M4-2.

 

[jimjm]

If you like shooting with 35mm lenses, the M2 viewfinder is uncluttered perfection, Just one frameline and the focus patch. If 50 was my preferred lens, I might have gone for an M3. Any black body will probably cost more than a chrome body of equal condition. One advantage of the M4's is the improved film loading and quicker rewind.
I use my M2 with several screw-mount lenses and adapters as well - no problems as long as you have a quality adapter from Leica or Cosina (Voigtlander). Other 3rd-party adapters may be hit or miss.
Sherry Krauter seems to think highly of the M5, but there may be fewer repair people willing to work on them, if the need arises.

 

[logan2z]

Oh, you definitely need an M body

I think you've already received good advice from earlier responders but I'll chime in as well...

I have an M2, M4 and M-A and agree that the M2 is perfect if 35mm is your preferred focal length. I'm not a huge fan of the M4 rewind knob or the film advance lever, although the latter is pretty easy to swap out for the rigid film advance lever (I haven't done it but I believe @Huss has). My M-A is black chrome which I think looks pretty stealthy - there is no visible Leica branding anywhere and no engraving on the top plate.

Whatever you choose, I'd recommend buying from a reputable Leica dealer as opposed to somewhere like eBay (no affiliation, but I personally like dealing with Leica Store Miami). You'll pay a bit more but that's worth the peace of mind, IMO.

Good luck!

 

[chuckroast]

Oh, you definitely need an M body

I think you've already received good advice from earlier responders but I'll chime in as well...

I have an M2, M4 and M-A and agree that the M2 is perfect if 35mm is your preferred focal length. I'm not a huge fan of the M4 rewind knob or the film advance lever, although the latter is pretty easy to swap out for the rigid film advance lever (I haven't done it but I believe @Huss has). My M-A is black chrome which I think looks pretty stealthy - there is no visible Leica branding anywhere and no engraving on the top plate.

Whatever you choose, I'd recommend buying from a reputable Leica dealer as opposed to somewhere like eBay (no affiliation, but I personally like dealing with Leica Store Miami). You'll pay a bit more but that's worth the peace of mind, IMO.

Good luck!

"Need" that's the word I was looking for ... NEED

 

[Philippe-Georges]

this one:

But I was much younger then, by far...

 

[Steven Lee]

My heart has always been with the M5 (I know, I'm weird, you're not the first to notice) but I am told that the M5s are maintenance nightmares, that the rollers go bad and no replacements are available, that the meters fail, etc.

Here's your answer: go with your heart. The most important thing to learn about Leica ownership is avoiding the Leicaphile community which persists on myths, rituals, and cargo cults. Victims who've been sucked into it inevitably abandon photo making in favor of brass worship and fully mechanical lifestyle because all electricity must be reserved for iPhones to take pictures of Leicas. They regularly engage in heated debates over the brand of electrical tape to cover the red dot with, and you care what these people have to say about the rollers?

There are tons of virtually unused M5s with all of their mechanical parts in factory-new condition out there. Send one to Sherry and you'll have a machine for life.

 

[radialMelt]

I'll chime in and say that I ran an M5 for quite a while and had no issues. I think the roller fiasco stuff you read about online afflicts earlier serial numbers only. Don't quote me on that though. M5s are still easily had for bargain prices (comparatively speaking, that is). What annoyed me more with the M5 was the lack of 28mm framelines. I've since moved to an MP and an M7 and still kind of miss the metering of the M5; it's really quite precise and accurate in that regard.

Look for a later 3-lug model in good shape and enjoy

 

[chuckroast]

I'll chime in and say that I ran an M5 for quite a while and had no issues. I think the roller fiasco stuff you read about online afflicts earlier serial numbers only. Don't quote me on that though. M5s are still easily had for bargain prices (comparatively speaking, that is). What annoyed me more with the M5 was the lack of 28mm framelines. I've since moved to an MP and an M7 and still kind of miss the metering of the M5; it's really quite precise and accurate in that regard.

Look for a later 3-lug model in good shape and enjoy

How do the meters hold up over time, I wonder?

 

[chuckroast]

Here's your answer: go with your heart. The most important thing to learn about Leica ownership is avoiding the Leicaphile community which persists on myths, rituals, and cargo cults. Victims who've been sucked into it inevitably abandon photo making in favor of brass worship and fully mechanical lifestyle because all electricity must be reserved for iPhones to take pictures of Leicas. They regularly engage in heated debates over the brand of electrical tape to cover the red dot with, and you care what these people have to say about the rollers?

There are tons of virtually unused M5s with all of their mechanical parts in factory-new condition out there. Send one to Sherry and you'll have a machine for life.

Yeah, there is a slavish cult side to this among the lifestyle hipsters ... I ignore them.

 

[GregY]

Yeah, there is a slavish cult side to this among the lifestyle hipsters ... I ignore them.

Unfortunately you just missed a 3-lug serviced one over at RFF. I had one in 75 when they were new & the meter was great with Kodachrome....but i really missed the way the original Ms handled...i'd already been working with one for 8 year! DAG has meter parts. & in general the meter is robust.....as is the CL meter of the same type. DAG just changed the meter cell on my '75 CL

 

[chuckroast]

As it happens, I just came upon a really clean M2 that was just serviced by DAG last month. I though the price quite reasonable at $1225. ("Reasonable" and "Leica" appear to be somewhat at odds ... but relatively speaking, it was ...)

Here's hoping it's as nice as it looks and I don't have to return it for cause.

Thanks to all here for your sage advice, and most of all for helping me understand just how much one NEEDS an M body.

 

[Pieter12]

I'll chime in and say that I ran an M5 for quite a while and had no issues. I think the roller fiasco stuff you read about online afflicts earlier serial numbers only. Don't quote me on that though. M5s are still easily had for bargain prices (comparatively speaking, that is). What annoyed me more with the M5 was the lack of 28mm framelines. I've since moved to an MP and an M7 and still kind of miss the metering of the M5; it's really quite precise and accurate in that regard.

Look for a later 3-lug model in good shape and enjoy

I find the full area of the viewfinder is pretty close for the 28mm.

 

[Paul Howell]

I shot with both M2 and M3 while in the Air Force in the early 70s. Not sure why the Air Force bought M2 as the M3 was considered the standard rangefinder until the Nikon F replaced all of the other 35mm systems that had been in use. Of the 2 I preferred the M3 as I generally shot with the 50 or 90. I guess if you shoot with a 50 or wider then the M2.

 

[bdial]

Historically, the M4-2 has been snubbed a bit by the Leica community, so prices lagged what other M's brought making them a relative bargain. I dunno if that's still the case though.
It omits the self-timer, and has no meter, but you can still make good pictures with one. You can also use lenses like Jupiter 12's that interfere with the meter probe in M5's.

 

[logan2z]

As it happens, I just came upon a really clean M2 that was just serviced by DAG last month. I though the price quite reasonable at $1225. ("Reasonable" and "Leica" appear to be somewhat at odds ... but relatively speaking, it was ...)

That's pretty inexpensive for a just-CLA'd M2. How is it cosmetically?

 

[GregY]

That's pretty inexpensive for a just-CLA''d M2. How is it cosmetically?

Less (accounting for inflation) than the used M2 i bought for $175 in 1967

 

[chuckroast]

That's pretty inexpensive for a just-CLA''d M2. How is it cosmetically?

It seems pretty nice:

 

[GregY]

It seems pretty nice:

View attachment 358816 View attachment 358817 View attachment 358818 View attachment 358819

<3

 

[madNbad]

Historically, the M4-2 has been snubbed a bit by the Leica community, so prices lagged what other M's brought making them a relative bargain. I dunno if that's still the case though.
It omits the self-timer, and has no meter, but you can still make good pictures with one. You can also use lenses like Jupiter 12's that interfere with the meter probe in M5's.

The M4-2 had problems early on but Leica corrected those. I passed them up for years and remember when they sold in the 500 dollar range. I bought one on a whim, found a guy in Hong Kong that makes 3D printed replacement flash blocks that are much stronger and more durable than the originals, swapped the articulated advance lever for a solid MP style and sent it to Son Goldberg for some work. Now it's the M camera I use the most.

 

[chuckroast]

<3

The price included an original case and manual, so if the camera is as good as advertised, I think I found a solid deal. We'll see.

 

[madNbad]

It seems pretty nice:

View attachment 358816 View attachment 358817 View attachment 358818 View attachment 358819

That's a winner!