When the camera you buy becomes the deciding factor for your ethics rating

Sonatas XII-52 (Life)

A
Sonatas XII-52 (Life)

  • 0
  • 1
  • 108
Helton Nature Park

A
Helton Nature Park

  • 0
  • 0
  • 484
See-King attention

D
See-King attention

  • 2
  • 0
  • 700
Saturday, in the park

A
Saturday, in the park

  • 1
  • 0
  • 1K
Farm to Market 1303

A
Farm to Market 1303

  • 1
  • 0
  • 2K

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
199,757
Messages
2,796,187
Members
100,026
Latest member
PixelAlice
Recent bookmarks
0

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
This is a story that has finally been consummated. I had bought a Yashica mat 124g at a 'tent sale' from Cardinal Camera in Lansdale, PA. At the time, the owner's son (who really is the 'owner', as his father suffers from extremely poor eyesight) was NOT present, but a worthy and trusted store clerk showed me the box to rummage through. I selected about 40 items of 'miscellaneous intent' and also a bunch of filters. I was told that this was stuff that they wanted to get rid of. When I was finished selecting, she told me that the used camera guy, Scott, would have to look at what I had picked and possibly remove some items that they might intend to sell for more. (They knew well in advance that I offer to pay very little.) I had no choice but to acquiesce and I did so gracefully (as all my interactions usually are). He removed ten items: I was left with about 30 items plus the filters. I offered $170 and this was accepted. I packed and left. One of the items was a Yashica mat 124g that had fungus in the internal components of the lens plus both the slow shutter speeds and self-timer lagged. When home, I dismantled the lens (I am used to doing this) and fully cleaned everything. I also flushed the shutter and self-timer mechanisms. I spent over one hour doing these things. As a result, the camera ended up in considerably better condition than when it had been purchased.

I put the camera up on CL for $125. I had a few who were interested, but no sale yet. Then, suddenly, I got an email from someone who stated he wanted to buy the camera for the $125. Amazingly and coincidentally, it was the owner's son at Cardinal, Tyler Seelig. Obviously, he did not know that it was 'his' camera he might be repurchasing. Feeling a bit of angst, even a tiny bit of guilt, I emailed him back and told him the entire story. I told him that I had purchased the camera, albeit at a bargain price, but in good faith. The conversation was at least somewhat amiable, but a bit tense. I offered to sell him back the camera for half price of what I was asking for, $65, if he picked it up in Center City, or for $75 if I delivered it to the store in Lansdale (by train). He finally conceded to my bringing it to Lansdale, but for only $65. I reluctantly agreed to this and this morning, Saturday, 30 June, I did just that, making the one hour train trip. The exchange was somewhat amiable, but still a bit tense.

There are those who would say that I offered too much and that a 'deal is a deal'. Others would say that the initial 'sale' was a 'theft' on my part. Of course, I am out looking for bargains: after all, Cardinal's 'tent sale' was purportedly just that. Regardless, does a proprietor not have an obligation to charge appropriately? Does a proprietor have any responsibilities when not present at his store? Not one word of apology came from Cardinal. But, not one word of opprobrium came from Cardinal either. The exchange was done and we are still on speaking terms, however, any future ventures into that store will have to be with Tyler present, because I am no longer going to be subject 'to afterthoughts' about previous sales. We learn through experiences and try to exercise of grace under fire. In a way, I DID take advantage, but did so with all present 'agents' watching me. I have bought much from Cardinal in the past. However, in the future: there are new protocols that have to be in place, first. - David Lyga
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,923
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm
You did no wrong! I go to estate sales often. I buy only items the owner feels worth far less than I feel it's worth to me. I do think you offered too much and a deal is a deal.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
I'm not sure why you lowered your price. I would not have done that. A shop assistants sold you the camera, and had opportunity to remove it from your bunch of stuff you wanted to buy but didn't. It had a screwy shutter, fungus'd lenses &c, you cleaned up the camera, something probably the same camera store repair department would have done for $100 ( or more! ), and then they would have sold it for even more. I am certain they will sell it in their store or ebay or ? for close to $200 ( or more ). I am sorry if this next comment sounds a bit snarky, but I am certain they would love you to buy all their tent sale cameras, fix them up and sell them back at a bargain price ! :smile: As for your ethics rating, you did nothing wrong but the shop keeper :whistling: . was not too "cool"... he had no reason to be "tense" you fixed his camera, and then sold it to him for less than you bought it for and put into it, took the train 1 hour each way .. if it was me, i wouldn't buy from him again unless I had to..and I would have kept the price you originally were going to sell it for.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
I want to be able to buy in the future from them. They are at all the shows. In essence, pragmatism trumped guilt. I am the first to say that this young man (only 23) needs some life experience dealing with life's problems, but I would rather 'lose' a few bucks than be 'out'. We make decisions based upon ethics and practicalities. To effectively synergize for best outcome takes maturity (something at 69 that I am still learning). I wish Tyler well, but there is some life experience to learn. At his age, I had this to learn, as well. Sometimes 'winning' is NOT winning.

Taking this 'extreme' measure, my reputation will not be permitted to suffer. That becomes the most important component here for me to deal with. The 'loss' is trivial in comparison to the 'perception' of wrongdoing. I think I made the right decision. Sometimes NOT sticking up for one's 'rights' becomes better than constantly reminding people of your legitimacy. Overall, I am happy with the outcome: NO ONE can accuse me of theft. Certainly, Cardinal did NOT, but even a molecule of guilt perception I am wary of. I am happy with the outcome, but I hope Tyler, as well, becomes aware of the fact that sometimes even a shop proprietor can stand to absorb and cultivate some introspection.

One thing did baffle me in the extreme. When I approached the counter he simply asked for my license in order to issue a check. This is normal, I guess. But he did not even attempt to inspect the camera after I had 'messed' with it. I insisted he open the case and I wound and clicked the shutter for him. I wanted to leave the store having given to him an intact camera. I did. - David Lyga
 
Last edited:

pbromaghin

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
3,827
Location
Castle Rock, CO
Format
Multi Format
Jnantz ++

David, why on earth do you think your labor and skill are worth nothing? Not many people are able to bring an old camera back to life. He was willing to accept your retail price as his wholesale price! All of the tension of this transaction is likely only in your own imagination. Businessmen have no time for such drama over a few bucks, and they can't afford to invest so much emotion into a deal when they have to do many deals every day, day after day.
 

faberryman

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
6,048
Location
Wherever
Format
Multi Format
You are trying to manufacture drama and an ethical dilemma where none exits. Much ado about nothing.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Jnantz ++

David, why on earth do you think your labor and skill are worth nothing? Not many people are able to bring an old camera back to life. He was willing to accept your retail price as his wholesale price! All of the tension of this transaction is likely only in your own imagination. Businessmen have no time for such drama over a few bucks, and they can't afford to invest so much emotion into a deal when they have to do many deals every day, day after day.
I am so used to simply unscrewing elements and cleaning them that I considered the 'work' to be insignificant. Maybe erroneously, I have a hard time charging huge prices for trivial work. My frugality seems to apply to others' money as well. This is why I have never made much money, but I have saved prodigiously, so I am solvent. I guess I was raised to be somewhat subordinate in our collective family, but, honestly, I still think rather highly of myself if that matters. In sum, I am happy with my actions and that is what really matters. I don't cultivate a sense of entitlement that many in our society fall prey to. No, I am not manufacturing an ethical situation, it is just that I am so particular of scrutinizing my actions. I was brought up to be always this way. - David Lyga
 

BrianShaw

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
16,683
Location
La-la-land
Format
Multi Format
You are trying to manufacture drama and an ethical dilemma where none exits. Much ado about nothing.
My thoughts exactly.

I’m more focused on this, however... which indicates to me that it is they who aren’t being entirely earnest: “I was told that this was stuff that they wanted to get rid of. When I was finished selecting, she told me that the used camera guy, Scott, would have to look at what I had picked and possibly remove some items that they might intend to sell for more.”

Sounds like a classic case of “sellers remorse”... which is something I really have a hard time feeling sorry or guilty about.

And you should be baffled; this isn’t normal at all (and you likely know this since you’ve graced this Earth for quite a while): “One thing did baffle me in the extreme. When I approached the counter he simply asked for my license in order to issue a check. This is normal, I guess.“
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Yes, this is what happened. However, I would rather feel COMPLETELY open rather than have some threads bothering me that need to be trimmed. That is how I am constructed and know that this mindset can lead to self-deprecation in the extreme. I am wary of that potential polarization and use both passion and logic to accumulate a modicum of ongoing wisdom. Having said this, you might be surprised to know that I actually like myself. This 'loss' of $65 is trivial and I would rather be on this side of the equation. After all, I KNEW that if I had explained the potential of this camera I would have precluded a sale. But I withheld this 'information' even though a store of that stature had an 'obligation' to know more than David Lyga knows about both cameras and the cameras market. I am pleased with my actions. - David Lyga
 

Dali

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,864
Location
Philadelphia
Format
Multi Format
You are trying to manufacture drama and an ethical dilemma where none exits. Much ado about nothing.

+1.

It is a business story (buy - sell) and as such there is no place for ethics.
 
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
+1.

It is a business story (buy - sell) and as such there is no place for ethics.
I handily and definitively disagree with your assessment here. I make no apologies, sir. You are entitled to your thoughts, but please be reminded (even remanded) about such ethical weighing of such matters. - David Lyga
 

BrianShaw

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
16,683
Location
La-la-land
Format
Multi Format
... and I hope Cardinal Camera does consider David Lyga to be an ethical person.

But in this case, David... you seem to have let him take advantage of you... albeit by your own doing a seemingly without malicious intent on his part. But he came out ahead in the deal and you came out behind. I think Dali’s point is something to ponder, especially if you don’t take it absolutely literally. There was a deal made between two big-boys; one of them later regretted his decision. He was not owed “compensation” or an apology. Nor were you obligated to feel guilt or submit to self-deprication.

Oh well... that’s life. Go forth and be happy.
 

BrianShaw

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
16,683
Location
La-la-land
Format
Multi Format
BTW, DL... I think this phenomenon you experienced is part of a syndrome associated with kids of shopowners who inherit Dad’s business. About 20 years ago I could have told a similar story about antique clocks I bought from a kid that inherited his Dads clock repair business.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,620
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
David - you worry too much!
Any guilt on your part is entirely self imposed.
And I don't see any non-ethical behaviour from anyone.
You offered to lower your price to a business actively engaged in buying and selling cameras after they agreed to pay more - generous, but not necessary.
Ethics only comes into play if there is some misleading behaviour or hiding of facts.
I don't see any evidence of that.
I can understand wanting to fully disclose what you know about the condition of the camera - the condition the camera was in when it came to you and the steps that you took to improve that condition - because that avoids potential further problems if the camera should fail after they have it in their inventory. But the price you paid and the fact that it was purchased from them is merely interesting, not relevant to your transaction.
I'm quite sure that if they themselves had done the work you did, or if they paid someone else to do it, it would have cost them more than the "profit" you made on the transactions.
You have increased their profit on that camera - they should be thanking you.
And for those suggesting you are "manufacturing" drama, with all due respect to them (and you), it seems to me that what they see as drama, you encounter regularly as internal angst.
David, I would suggest that you heed the words of that a wise philosopher:
 

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,192
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Good job, David. You seem to be satisfied with the end results, you maintained a relationship with a company you appreciate, and you made some money as well.

Plus you generated some thoughts amongst us in this forum. A win-win situation.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,923
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm
I wonder why the son wanted to buy the same model camera he just sold? Was it because he made a mistake selling a sentimental value item? If so selling him back the same camera would be a lot valuable to him than another camera of the same model.
 

faberryman

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
6,048
Location
Wherever
Format
Multi Format
I wonder why the son wanted to buy the same model camera he just sold?
The guy is in business. He sold the camera to David because he thought it was junk. He wanted to buy the camera from David because he thought he could resell it for a profit.
 

Dali

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,864
Location
Philadelphia
Format
Multi Format
I handily and definitively disagree with your assessment here. I make no apologies, sir. You are entitled to your thoughts, but please be reminded (even remanded) about such ethical weighing of such matters. - David Lyga

You can create your own drama with this story but I don't call this ethics.
 

Arklatexian

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
1,777
Location
Shreveport,
Format
Multi Format
This is a story that has finally been consummated. I had bought a Yashica mat 124g at a 'tent sale' from Cardinal Camera in Lansdale, PA. At the time, the owner's son (who really is the 'owner', as his father suffers from extremely poor eyesight) was NOT present, but a worthy and trusted store clerk showed me the box to rummage through. I selected about 40 items of 'miscellaneous intent' and also a bunch of filters. I was told that this was stuff that they wanted to get rid of. When I was finished selecting, she told me that the used camera guy, Scott, would have to look at what I had picked and possibly remove some items that they might intend to sell for more. (They knew well in advance that I offer to pay very little.) I had no choice but to acquiesce and I did so gracefully (as all my interactions usually are). He removed ten items: I was left with about 30 items plus the filters. I offered $170 and this was accepted. I packed and left. One of the items was a Yashica mat 124g that had fungus in the internal components of the lens plus both the slow shutter speeds and self-timer lagged. When home, I dismantled the lens (I am used to doing this) and fully cleaned everything. I also flushed the shutter and self-timer mechanisms. I spent over one hour doing these things. As a result, the camera ended up in considerably better condition than when it had been purchased.

I put the camera up on CL for $125. I had a few who were interested, but no sale yet. Then, suddenly, I got an email from someone who stated he wanted to buy the camera for the $125. Amazingly and coincidentally, it was the owner's son at Cardinal, Tyler Seelig. Obviously, he did not know that it was 'his' camera he might be repurchasing. Feeling a bit of angst, even a tiny bit of guilt, I emailed him back and told him the entire story. I told him that I had purchased the camera, albeit at a bargain price, but in good faith. The conversation was at least somewhat amiable, but a bit tense. I offered to sell him back the camera for half price of what I was asking for, $65, if he picked it up in Center City, or for $75 if I delivered it to the store in Lansdale (by train). He finally conceded to my bringing it to Lansdale, but for only $65. I reluctantly agreed to this and this morning, Saturday, 30 June, I did just that, making the one hour train trip. The exchange was somewhat amiable, but still a bit tense.

There are those who would say that I offered too much and that a 'deal is a deal'. Others would say that the initial 'sale' was a 'theft' on my part. Of course, I am out looking for bargains: after all, Cardinal's 'tent sale' was purportedly just that. Regardless, does a proprietor not have an obligation to charge appropriately? Does a proprietor have any responsibilities when not present at his store? Not one word of apology came from Cardinal. But, not one word of opprobrium came from Cardinal either. The exchange was done and we are still on speaking terms, however, any future ventures into that store will have to be with Tyler present, because I am no longer going to be subject 'to afterthoughts' about previous sales. We learn through experiences and try to exercise of grace under fire. In a way, I DID take advantage, but did so with all present 'agents' watching me. I have bought much from Cardinal in the past. However, in the future: there are new protocols that have to be in place, first. - David Lyga
Methinks you bent over backwards to do the "right thing". It was the store who did not. They showed a lack of professionalism. Are they in business to sell photography equipment/supplies or is it a hobby? That, of course, is none of your/my business. Like you, in the future, I would be more careful purchasing from them. When I worked in a camera store and we lost money on a deal, "shame on us, not our customer".......Regards!
 

Ko.Fe.

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,209
Location
MiltON.ONtario
Format
Digital
Some Cardinal ethics? Lets see.
They sold the item on agreed price. You have paid agreed price. You did camera CLA which is never less than 100$ job.
Then this SOB spotted this camera and wanted to buy it because it is worth much more than he sold it for. Because of your job, your hours.
Why do you have to lower the price for your CLA to 30 bucks? They downplayed you with zero respect and I'm sure now this camera is relisted by this SOB as 200 CLA'd camera.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,480
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
Some Cardinal ethics? Lets see.
They sold the item on agreed price. You have paid agreed price. You did camera CLA which is never less than 100$ job.
Then this SOB spotted this camera and wanted to buy it because it is worth much more than he sold it for. Because of your job, your hours.
Why do you have to lower the price for your CLA to 30 bucks? They downplayed you with zero respect and I'm sure now this camera is relisted by this SOB as 200 CLA'd camera.

+1
 
OP
OP
David Lyga

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Good job, David. You seem to be satisfied with the end results, you maintained a relationship with a company you appreciate, and you made some money as well.

Plus you generated some thoughts amongst us in this forum. A win-win situation.
Vaughn, your reply was the absolute best: a simple, transparent attempt to understand my mind and the dimensions that I embrace. When the blacks in NYC sit in the subway or in Philadelphia on the bus, and stretch their legs so no one can get a seat (called by the NYPD as 'manspread', but race is always left out because of political correctness mandates even though everyone knows who they are) I do not get upset that my 'rights' are violated. Such hogging, pure and simple, emanates from a lack of security and a desperation to assert their 'superiority' over others. People who do this are insecure, even though, outwardly they are passively aggressive. The real victors in those situations are those who bear and persevere, knowing that resolution of that specific topic will not be forthcoming in an immediate sense.

For those who say that Tyler Seelig is ugly or dead wrong or other pejoratives, I say this: He was raised by a very decent man, Kurt Seelig, and Tyler is a highly desirable member of the human race. He was not trying to screw me; perhaps he was a bit flummoxed that I would delve (so intelligently?) into his inventory as I had done and he was probably privately embarrassed that his staff would be deficient in not noticing something being sold for peanuts that had real potential. I said that he needs experience with life and business relations, nothing more pejorative than that.

Do I need to always need to assert my rights? (On the bus or subway I do not dare; I would not win and I would be called a racist, to boot). Instead, maybe my 'largess' will do Kurt's son something positive after the dust settles and he has had time to think this out, privately, without threat. When I gave him the camera he did not seem to think that he was the victor. He did not even check it out! I think that his angst was more out of fear, loss of control, that someone had 'found gold' in that box and he did not want to be 'outsmarted'. These are human traits that we all went through on the way to maturity. (The 'manspread' crowd will have to learn this, as well.) Experience settles the stumbling in life and points the direction towards character improvement. Thus, immediate 'winning' falls by the wayside in terms of importance. Too few understand that factor because we live in an 'immediate' culture. I have no regrets for what I did and whatever I feel that I have lost, I feel I have gained more in other areas. - David Lyga
 
Last edited:
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom