When is time for CLA (Leica)?

[Horatio]

https://www.meister-camera.com/

Look regularly (both Berlin and Hamburg shops) - from time to time they have really good price, but you need to be fast. I got there my M3 for 699, in great condition. And also I got LTM III with Elmar 5cm f3.5 for 250, sold the body only for more than that (as I like If more).

Thanks. I'll check it out.

 

[darkosaric]

 

[Horatio]

That's a smokin' deal!

 

[darkosaric]

With some patience and luck - you can get good deals. I got on ebay Leica CM zoom (prototype version) for 199. Seller did not had Paypal option, shipping only to Germany, and stated "as is, no return". I took a risk, and the camera works perfectly, is like new.

 

[Huss]

If the camera works great it doesn't need anything.

 

[Chrismat]

I was thinking about starting a thread like this a few days ago. I finally took the Leica plunge and purchased a silver Leica M5 from a Japanese Ebay seller. It only arrived last Saturday but it looks and performs nearly brand new. I have 30 day return policy but so far so good.

 

[JWMster]

And yes, I'll say it: Nikon's best is better than the majority of Leica equipment. An F2 is a smarter investment than any rangefinder camera. It can use a far larger variety of lenses, does not need special attachments to accurately focus extremely long tele lenses (though a very cheap focusing screen can help), can meter macro photography thru the lens, top speed of 1/2000... and basically never needs maintenance if treated well. This does not mean that precisely-made German cameras with organic oils do not need a CLA every ten or maybe every twenty years if you want to push it. Those oils seize up, solidify, flake off and jam up gears. By the time the shutter speeds are getting wonky it is probably too late to save the full lifespan of the camera, whether or not a CLA can restore functionality in the medium-to-short term.

If you guys don't take it personally....

RL: Sold my M4-2 and M6 TTL and Zeiss ZM and Leica lenses. I think the thing for Leica's are the lenses (as they say) and not the cameras. So as an SLR guy more than a rangefinder, I was VERY HAPPY to switch to Nikon, a process begun a year ago with FM2n and F100, but have switched to F4's and L-O-V-E the buttons and handling. Leica did work great, but the option of F lenses that will work with AF (I'm pretty much an AF-D guy) and use of these on both DSLRs, Mirrorless, etc. has been a happy moment. Love the images the Zeiss lenses made... but I'm loving the F4's. F100 took great shots, and same with the FM2n, but the FM2n may go since my eyes benefit from AF these days. Guess I'm just a SLR kind of guy by preference, though I do like Rollei TLR's, too.

 

[RLangham]

Guess I'm just a SLR kind of guy by preference, though I do like Rollei TLR's, too.

I think you're right that the virtue of Leica is in the lenses. Now, to be sure the cameras are excellently made, in the upper echelon of camera manufacturing.

But of course, lenses are also a strong selling point of Nikon. I have owned many fabulous normal SLR lenses: Meyer Primoplan, Soviet Helios-44, Steinheil Cassar-S, Super Multi-Coated Takumar 50/1.4, Rokkor-X 45/2... but when I say with conviction that the best normal lens I have ever owned is the Auto Nikkor-S 5cm f/2 (the original normal for the Nikon F before the Auto Nikkor-H) I meant it. I have owned no other Nikon lens, but by this weird retrofocal lens alone I am convinced of Nikon's commitment to fine optics, at least as far as the late 50's and early 60's are concerned. Its color response is excellent, its sharpness unlike anything I have ever shot with, barring some Minolta wides.

One buys a Leica for the lenses and the smooth, precision feel that makes them quick to operate; one buys a Nikon for the lenses, lifelong reliability, and the attention to detail that makes every square centimeter of a camera file the F2 a marvel of industrial design. In professional operation, if I were alive back then, I would probably use both for different tasks, but I feel unkind making the comparison. It feels like boasting that you can best up your grandpa. Duh! But why would you want to? The Leica made 35mm THE small format of choice forever afterwards. Nikon and then Olympus perfected it.

 

[btaylor]

Interesting opinions on the CLA question. I think it is confusing: Film Leicas were professional tools, made to be serviced, as most mechanical professional tools are. But they are now rarely used that way- we use them, but not like we are pros. So who is right? Use it until it doesn’t work (a sin for tools designed to be maintained) or perhaps “over service” it because it really doesn’t get used very much? I don’t know that answer. But I err toward somewhat regular service for most mechanical pieces. I also think that lower end gear is really not designed to be used professionally and serviced- opening them up can invite problems.
Why all the griping about CLA costs- $140? $200? $300? How much do you think a repair guy should make in an hour? How many hours does a skilled service tech take to do a thorough CLA- I’ve got to guess at least a couple or three hours. Pay the man! We are so fortunate to get such great gear for pennies on the dollar- live a little and keep our dwindling repair resources in business.

 

[JWMster]

RL: Agree strongly: "...but, I feel unkind making the comparison." Yes. And it's apples and oranges. RF (TLR) works fine for me because the screen is larger. RF M's less so. Were I a younger man, absolutely. The comparison is less between the cameras than between the man using them and the tools that they are. Nikon SLR's and Mirrorless are what I need now-a-days in 35mm size ("full frame"). I read somewhere that Zeiss lenses were imported into Japan, but with WW1 the Germans stopped exports as they needed the glass for their submarine efforts and field armies. Japan's Nikon was drafted to fill the slot, and copied the designs. Ergo... Nikon's glass initially followed the Zeiss path. As a Zeiss lover, it was a natural. The other difficulty for me is that in much shooting, I love an 85mm and especially 135mm, and a Leica RF doesn't work all that well with these focal lengths. At 35 and 50 it's great. I even shot Zeiss Zm 21mm's and loved that, too. Zeiss colors... and frankly Leica colors are wonderful. Nikon is no slouch there, either. Canon as well. And yes as you point out... there's a LOT of great glass out there. I'm told the EU's EPA banned the arsenic or whatever it was they used in making and grinding lenses so that today's glass is lesser quality even if the contemporary process is more refined and controlled and can compensate. I'm no expert... so I don't know whether that statement has as much legs as the fellow in California that I'm quoting. I was referred to him by Zeiss... so I presume he knew his business,

 

[film_man]

The cost of CLA (cheapest that I find in EU is: work and material 275+25 euros, + 32 shipping + 21% tax on top = 400 euros (475$). I paid for M6 1100 euros 10 years ago, so this is not small amount.
For example I purchased M4 couple of months ago in working condition for 299 euros ('as is' from Meister Camera, but works fine).

ApertureUK in London serviced my M4 for £216 (VAT inclusive). He oiled the camera, adjusted the speeds, aligned the rangefinder, cleaned the finder and told me the fast speeds are 1 stop slow and would need more work for extra £. All done in a week. Cameraworks charges £260 (no VAT) though expect to have the camera there for 6 months.

In any case the purchase price of the camera has nothing to do with the service cost. Your M6 adjusted for inflation is 1200 euros today and that is still way below what the market price is. The M4 was a lucky find so again, the fact it was 300 euros has nothing to do with it.

Think of it like this: you have the camera, it works. If you spend another 300 to ensure it keeps going for another 10 years that's 30 euros/year usage fees.

 

[film_man]

Preventive cla is not smart. It will cost you a lot of money and you are not sure what will be done.

Do you take that approach with your car? Should I wait till the engine starts stuttering and making funny noises before I change the oil and air filter? Or should I wait for the brakes to grind the discs before I go for a brake pad change (oooops that's a rotor change too now).

 

[NB23]

Do you take that approach with your car? Should I wait till the engine starts stuttering and making funny noises before I change the oil and air filter? Or should I wait for the brakes to grind the discs before I go for a brake pad change (oooops that's a rotor change too now).

Thanks for this Folkloric analogy involving a notoriously known shady business (car repair); and mechanics, who are widely accepted as misleading, fraudulent and unscrupulous.

The car repair business has to be the #1 ranked shady business on the planet. And if you ask me, the camera repair business (especially involving Leica) is #2. As someone already said, the Leica pedantry and wannabeism is a very expensive hobby, and the involved repairmen are scrubbing their hands.

 

[RLangham]

Thanks for this Folkloric analogy involving a notoriously known shady business (car repair); and mechanics, who are widely accepted as misleading, fraudulent and unscrupulous.

The car repair business has to be the #1 ranked shady business on the planet.

That doesn't change the fact that your car needs maintenance.

 

[film_man]

Thanks for this Folkloric analogy involving a notoriously known shady business (car repair); and mechanics, who are widely accepted as misleading, fraudulent and unscrupulous.

The car repair business has to be the #1 ranked shady business on the planet. And if you ask me, the camera repair business (especially involving Leica) is #2. As someone already said, the Leica pedantry and wannabeism is a very expensive hobby, and the involved repairmen are scrubbing their hands.

Lovely bit of whataboutery there but you forgot to enlighten us as to whether you service your car or not.

 

[John Will]

That doesn't change the fact that your car needs maintenance.

Agreed, unless "The car repair business has to be the #1 ranked shady business on the planet." applies. For example a few months ago I had a 4 new tyres (tires) fitted on my SUV. When I picked it up I was told that I needed new rear brake pads and they could do it while I waited. I declined as I have only driven 60,000km and usually get over 100,000km on a set of pads. I took the vehicle to my regular service place and they said the brakes are good for at least another 12 months.

Back to camera CLA, a few years ago I took my Leica M2 to a Leica factory trained service technician and inquired about a CLA. The first thing he asked was 'what is the problem', I said it was working fine I just thought it should be serviced because I didn't know when it was last done. His comments were 'if it is working fine, leave well alone'. He explained that because of the age of the camera, 60 years +, disturbing parts that have bedded in for 'unnecessary service' in can cause more wear and issues. His advice was use it until you notice a problem. 5 years later I have no problems and the camera is working fine.

 

[NB23]

Lovely bit of whataboutery there but you forgot to enlighten us as to whether you service your car or not.

I certainly don’t give my keys to the mechanic with a note “do what has to be done” as you seem to be insisting that I should be doing.

Good luck with your car repairs. Do you have more analogies you would like to share?

 

[NB23]

This is all comon sense. And you saved at least 1000$ right there.

Agreed, unless "The car repair business has to be the #1 ranked shady business on the planet." applies. For example a few months ago I had a 4 new tyres (tires) fitted on my SUV. When I picked it up I was told that I needed new rear brake pads and they could do it while I waited. I declined as I have only driven 60,000km and usually get over 100,000km on a set of pads. I took the vehicle to my regular service place and they said the brakes are good for at least another 12 months.

Back to camera CLA, a few years ago I took my Leica M2 to a Leica factory trained service technician and inquired about a CLA. The first thing he asked was 'what is the problem', I said it was working fine I just thought it should be serviced because I didn't know when it was last done. His comments were 'if it is working fine, leave well alone'. He explained that because of the age of the camera, 60 years +, disturbing parts that have bedded in for 'unnecessary service' in can cause more wear and issues. His advice was use it until you notice a problem. 5 years later I have no problems and the camera is working fine.

 

[Saganich]

I tend to lean in John's direction regarding Leica CLA's for the casual non-profit shooter. I bought a new MP in 2003 and have had it CLA'd twice mostly because of dirt and dust. I bought an M2 in the 1990's and have never had a CLA. I have couple LTM's from 30's and 50's only one has had a known CLA a few years ago. I try to put a roll through them all once a month. Most problems solved by a competent CLA will show up on your film if you pay some attention to the results.

 

[film_man]

I certainly don’t give my keys to the mechanic with a note “do what has to be done” as you seem to be insisting that I should be doing.

Good luck with your car repairs. Do you have more analogies you would like to share?

Ok Mr NB23, since you seem to be pedantic and need it all spelled out, here is what I do: When the time comes for a service I take my car to the garage, give them the keys and say "I want an oil service/inspection 1/major service/whatever-terminology-your-car-manufacturer-uses". Then the garage knows what I asked and they go and do it. The car comes with a little book, the book inside lists the jobs that have to be done, oil service at x miles, brake fluid at 2 years, transmission at x miles, greasing this at this interval and all those wonderful things. I then expect the garage to do the work, I pay them and all good.

Now, you seem to say that I cannot possibly trust them to do the work. Well ok but certain things require an amount of trust or we would never get anything done in this life. It is also why people sometimes take their business elsewhere as they are not happy with the results. I trust my garage, they do seem to do the work I ask of them.

Same with a CLA. I take it to the guy, say a CLA. That means I want it Cleaned, Lubricated and Adjusted. So the guy knows what needs doing. I trust him to do it because I've seen the results. I have also used once somebody who I now do not trust at all. That is not a reason to never service the camera, it was a reason to find the guy I trust.

I hope that is clear enough for you. Have a nice day and we're still waiting to hear if service your car or not? Do tell us and also do tell us what you specifically tell the garage over what I have described above. Or you know, don't. I'll just block you. Shame, you'll never see this.

 

[Huss]

The well known Leica M5 expert in the US that serviced my M5 messed it up. The rf condenser went missing so it now flared, and the meter was not adjusted to read a modern 1.5v cell even though that was listed on the receipt.

DAG fixed everything. Mechanics are like barbers/dentists/masseuses.. Once you find a good one, stick with them.

 

[PFGS]

I've always enjoyed Dante Stella's word on the subject: https://www.dantestella.com/technical/cla.html

 

[NB23]

when or where exactly did I say that a camera in need of a CLA didn’t need a CLA?

Maybe my pedantry is atributed to my proposition of not sending a camera for a costly non-needed CLA? I can’t be to blame, can I?

Ok Mr NB23, since you seem to be pedantic and need it all spelled out, here is what I do: When the time comes for a service I take my car to the garage, give them the keys and say "I want an oil service/inspection 1/major service/whatever-terminology-your-car-manufacturer-uses". Then the garage knows what I asked and they go and do it. The car comes with a little book, the book inside lists the jobs that have to be done, oil service at x miles, brake fluid at 2 years, transmission at x miles, greasing this at this interval and all those wonderful things. I then expect the garage to do the work, I pay them and all good.

Now, you seem to say that I cannot possibly trust them to do the work. Well ok but certain things require an amount of trust or we would never get anything done in this life. It is also why people sometimes take their business elsewhere as they are not happy with the results. I trust my garage, they do seem to do the work I ask of them.

Same with a CLA. I take it to the guy, say a CLA. That means I want it Cleaned, Lubricated and Adjusted. So the guy knows what needs doing. I trust him to do it because I've seen the results. I have also used once somebody who I now do not trust at all. That is not a reason to never service the camera, it was a reason to find the guy I trust.

I hope that is clear enough for you. Have a nice day and we're still waiting to hear if service your car or not? Do tell us and also do tell us what you specifically tell the garage over what I have described above. Or you know, may don't. I'll just block you. Shame, you'll never see this.

 

[BradS]

Do you take that approach with your car? Should I wait till the engine starts stuttering and making funny noises before I change the oil and air filter? Or should I wait for the brakes to grind the discs before I go for a brake pad change (oooops that's a rotor change too now).

It is a false analogy. Comparing a camera (or fine mechanical wrist watch) to an automotive internal combustion engine is fraught with problems. A moment's consideration of the temperatures involved and byproducts of combustion for and you should see the problem. Because (gasoline or diesel powered) automobile engine needs to have an oil & filter change ever six months or 5000 miles does not mean that a camera or wrist watch needs to have similarly periodic maintenance. Every reputable and HONEST camera or watch repair technician will tell you that if it works properly, it does not need to be serviced.

 

[Sirius Glass]

And then there are reports that Nikon Fs, F2, F3 as well as various Leicas have gone through many Wars and assignments throughout decades without a single CLA.

Many Nikons (especially) have gone over 250,000 clicks without the need for repair of any kind.

What are we going to say about this?

I greatly prefer not to go through any wars, thank you.