What's your favourite medium format film for overcast handholding at ISO800?

[pentaxuser]

So Juan is there anything we have collectively told you that has given you help or information you did not already know.

pentaxuser

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

That shot was metered at box speed, and developed in replenished HC-110 dilution E. IIRC, I increased my development time by 10%

It seems your shot is an example of a mild push too... One that looks and works fine for overcast... It looks like TMY can't reach normal contrast at 400, but at 200-250-320 in HC110... Isn't it why Kodak went for xtol, after designing Tmax films around d-76? TMY @ 200-250 in d-76 is beautiful... If you ask me, even if some people can prefer your photograph a bit more open tonally, say one or two thirds of stop, or box speed but in a faster developer that reaches box speed, I prefer it the way you made it: it has a lot of character, and in the other case, it would be a little cleaner but it could easily start to wash out and lose personality... Just my opinion, of course... You made a great negative, and also a great print for the subject.

 

[Sirius Glass]

With MF, one often needs to stop down more than in 135 because a) dof is less at the same apertures and b) lenses are slower. And one might want to use faster shutter speeds, too, if one makes larger prints than one would from 135, but that of course depends also on abilities, ergonomics and stuff.
But that doesn't seem to be the OPs issue.

Not a problem with the Hasselblad Zeiss lenses. You must be using inferior equipment.

 

[MattKing]

It's a fine shot, Matt, but more to the point is: If she was your model did you pay her enough to replace those torn jeans? I had no idea things were that bad in Canada

pentaxuser

From the things I just don't understand department:

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

So Juan is there anything we have collectively told you that has given you help or information you did not already know.

pentaxuser

Sure, for years, and today too... I wouldn't be here if not...
I'm a lot more humble than you could imagine... I'm here to learn...
Have a nice night.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hi Sirius... A filter? I don't get it...
I just said I won't need a developer/film for high contrast 'cause I don't photograph under direct sunlight. So all comments should be related to expansion. Thank you!

I am looking for a filter that changes overcast skies to nice blue skies with fluffy clouds.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I have read, through the years, two or three comments here at Photrio, about D400 being better for 800 than TMY2... I'm sure about that... Maybe those members will chime in... Definitely TMY2 is slower than D400.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I am looking for a filter that changes overcast skies to nice blue skies with fluffy clouds.

You seem like being a Photoshop guy!
Sorry, you just made it easy.

 

[grain elevator]

Not a problem with the Hasselblad Zeiss lenses. You must be using inferior equipment.

Oh I see. I was thinking of equipment to which the rules of physics apply, not Zeiss lenses.

 

[MattKing]

It seems your shot is an example of a mild push too... One that looks and works fine for overcast... It looks like TMY can't reach normal contrast at 400, but at 200-250-320 in HC110... Isn't it why Kodak went for xtol, after designing Tmax films around d-76? TMY @ 200-250 in d-76 is beautiful... If you ask me, even if some people can prefer your photograph a bit more open tonally, say one or two thirds of stop, or box speed but in a faster developer that reaches box speed, I prefer it the way you made it: it has a lot of character, and in the other case, it would be a little cleaner but it could easily start to wash out and lose personality... Just my opinion, of course... You made a great negative, and also a great print for the subject.

I think we have a difference in terminology. I don't consider that increase of development to be a "push", but rather an expansion.
My replenished HC-110 dilution E gave me box speed consistently. All I needed to do was fine tune the development time to give me the normal contrast I prefer.
I decided to increase the development slightly for those rolls because of the diffused nature of the light that day.
In more recent times I've transitioned to replenished X-Tol, but as I still have some HC-110 replenisher, I leave open the option of using replenished HC-110 again.
Here is another photo which was coincidentally shot at the same location several years later. TMY again, and still replenished HC-110 dil E, but the light is distinctly different - open sky here, but otherwise sun and cloud - so I relied on adjusting contrast at the printing stage. The metering was keyed carefully to the highlights.
This is a scan from the negative. The prints are slightly lower key, and toned using brown toner.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have read, through the years, two or three comments here at Photrio, about D400 being better for 800 than TMY2... I'm sure about that... Maybe those members will chime in... Definitely TMY2 is slower than D400.

That one I hadn't heard before. Is this your own experience and if so how did you discover this?

It sounds as if my decision that D400 has the edge simply on cost is right for other reasons as well

pentaxuser

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

All I have right now is this phone and I don't know how to share addresses or images... There's an example there (post #35) with one of the best tones for expansion I've seen, ever... It's TMY2... It's not easy to do it, IMO, that well... The thread started in November 2019 and it's called Recommendations for 35mm MF Nikon lens for the FM... An old woman with her hands on a grave... Impressive! As the kid told me some time ago, not box speed, and and not standard developer either... He didn't even develop his film: it was a lab!

 

[Sirius Glass]

You seem like being a Photoshop guy!
Sorry, you just made it easy.

I have never owned FauxToe$hop.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I am looking for a filter that changes overcast skies to nice blue skies with fluffy clouds.

Oh I see. I was thinking of equipment to which the rules of physics apply, not Zeiss lenses.

My equipment is good enough I do not have to over expose one stop to compensate for using MF.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I think we have a difference in terminology. I don't consider that increase of development to be a "push", but rather an expansion.
My replenished HC-110 dilution E gave me box speed consistently. All I needed to do was fine tune the development time to give me the normal contrast I prefer.
I decided to increase the development slightly for those rolls because of the diffused nature of the light that day.
In more recent times I've transitioned to replenished X-Tol, but as I still have some HC-110 replenisher, I leave open the option of using replenished HC-110 again.
Here is another photo which was coincidentally shot at the same location several years later. TMY again, and still replenished HC-110 dil E, but the light is distinctly different - open sky here, but otherwise sun and cloud - so I relied on adjusting contrast at the printing stage. The metering was keyed carefully to the highlights.
This is a scan from the negative. The prints are slightly lower key, and toned using brown toner.
View attachment 244520

An absolute pleasure, Matt! Remarkable!!!

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

If anyone's interested, the woman/grave shot was TMY2@320 in Clayton F-76. That made me take decisions, getting into acutance, speed developers that don't depresss middle tones...
Another thing I learned from Photrio.

 

[MattKing]

There's an example there (post #35) with one of the best tones for expansion I've seen, ever... It's TMY2... It's not easy to do it, IMO, that well...

Thanks Juan, but that particular example didn't involve any expansion.
It was metered at box speed and developed normally.
What I did do was emphasize the highlights when I took my meter reading, knowing that with TMY if I gave the highlights generous exposure, the shadows would fall naturally.
The pleasing contrast comes from the printing/post processing choices.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Thanks Juan, but that particular example didn't involve any expansion.
It was metered at box speed and developed normally.
What I did do was emphasize the highlights when I took my meter reading, knowing that with TMY if I gave the highlights generous exposure, the shadows would fall naturally.
The pleasing contrast comes from the printing/post processing choices.

Matt, I don't know if you mean yours or the woman's shot, is not an expansion... But I think you're right about language getting in the middle... When I say that image is an expansion (the woman) I mean a low contrast scene (not direct sun) was expanded, to make its tones separated... Light was flat, and the image is not... Then we can decide how much of the shadows we keep or not: in the case of low contrast scenes, losing a bit of the shadows is not visually uncomfortable as it indeed happens when we lose shadow detail in a direct sun shot because of a wrong EI, that's ugly... Finally it's the images what matters, and yours are great... Perhaps my words are so-so... I know your tools shot had efficient printing work obviously, but hey, it was very well exposed and very well developed too...

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

The young man who did the woman/grave TMY2 shot that was lab developed, also told me he no doubt prefers Delta 400 over TMY2... That surprised me, then I remembered having heard that before, more than once around here, as their small difference in speed... TMY2 is close to 200 and that's why its grain is well below other ISO400 B&W films... Of course for overcast it works well at box speed even in standard developers.

 

[MattKing]

TMY2 is close to 200 and that's why its grain is well below other ISO400 B&W films

Not in my experience.
TMY-2 is a robust ISO 400 film. If you evaluate it using Zone system rather than ISO methods, it will measure out at an EI that is 2/3 of a stop less, just like just about all other films, due to the differences between how ISO speeds and Zone system speeds are determined.
ISO speed ratings tend to result in better machine or lab prints than Zone system speed ratings.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Not in my experience.
TMY-2 is a robust ISO 400 film. If you evaluate it using Zone system rather than ISO methods, it will measure out at an EI that is 2/3 of a stop less, just like just about all other films, due to the differences between how ISO speeds and Zone system speeds are determined.
ISO speed ratings tend to result in better machine or lab prints than Zone system speed ratings.

So, I say the film's close to 200, and you say it's 250... Aren't we saying exactly exactly the same?
The film reaches 400 in FX-39 and a few other developers... It doesn't reach the same speed in Rodinal, Pyrocat-HD, Perceptol or D-76... Those are great developers too, but slower.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Now, who's tested TMY and D400 finding both of them have exactly the same speed?
And who found both push equally well?

 

[MattKing]

So, I say the film's close to 200, and you say it's 250... Aren't we saying exactly exactly the same?

No, because you are saying that it is slower than other ISO 400 films.
And it isn't - it is a full ISO 400 film.
If you change the measuring criteria to one that builds in a 2/3 stop change, like Zone System criteria, it is a full EI 250 film.
Other 400 ISO films might be designed to rate higher using Zone System criteria, but that won't help you in most circumstances with roll film shot in varying circumstances, where ISO metering is most beneficial.

 

[DREW WILEY]

TMY is faster because it has a longer straight line down into the toe, making threshold shadow gradation feasible at less exposure. But you obviously forfeit a full stop of shadow value by shooting it at 800 (and I do consider TMY to be a true 400 film). "Pushing" it is not an ideal form of phrasing. TMax films are especially amenable to higher gamma (contrast) using stronger development. But that won't give you back any lost shadow value due to underexposure. In Zone System talk, you can realistically launch off black around Zone 1 provided you carefully meter the shadow values and rate it at 400.That's a full stop more range down there than many films. But on an overcast day, you're not likely to have great contrast anyway, so shooting it at 800 instead will not carry a significant penalty like in open sun. But the ZS mantra of basing shadow values on Z3 is a good way to get into trouble with TMax films due to overly dense, hard to print highlights.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello, I just got enough TMY for my rangefinders and Hasselblad, and enough FX-39 for a couple of years too... So, that'll be my road now...
That's what I prefer for 35mm: sharp grain.
I'm not sure if TMY/FX-39 in 120, will imply too little grain compared to my 35mm prints, because I haven't used MF TMY in fx-39 yet...
I guess I have four main options:
TMY @ 400, TMY @ 800, Delta @ 400, and Delta @ 800. That, leaving traditional films alone, and I'm not sure about that either, being MF...
I have very little experience with handheld 120, and, contrary to my stopped-down 35mm shooting, I plan to use my 6x6 at 1/250 and 1/500, and just set f-stop...
And, I have zero experience printing handheld 120... So I'll just take your words and advice without saying a word: I just know nothing about this...
All I imagine, but I could be in a huge mistake, is Delta400 might be a bit faster than TMY and possibly it has a little more grain: perhaps both facts can serve me well for more visible sharp grain in 120...
So, not sure about which film, and not sure if pushing or not... I'm sure about seeking sharp grain, and about not using direct sunlight...
What would you try? Thanks!

Tmax400