What's so great about XTOL?

[Lee L]

The air-evac bottles I got several decades ago sucked in air past the seal from the start. You should also consider what it's like to try and assure that you have the bellows creases all thoroughly cleaned. I haven't used mine in years, although I guess they could still hold water.

Lee

 

[wogster]

The air-evac bottles I got several decades ago sucked in air past the seal from the start. You should also consider what it's like to try and assure that you have the bellows creases all thoroughly cleaned. I haven't used mine in years, although I guess they could still hold water.

Lee

I have 2, one doesn't seal and the other does, the biggest problem I find is that even at the most scrunched up position, the bottle still has a considerable volume, Thinking a better idea is to get a few packages of glass beads at a craft store, then with a 500ml or 1L bottle, you simply add a few beads to get the bottle to the full point, even with glass bottles, the beads shouldn't cause a breakage, as the ones lowest down need to travel through a considerable volume of liquid to get there. When the bottle contains only beads, you dump them into a 11x14 print tray. and give them a good rinse to remove the chemistries. Put them into an empty plastic bottle and repeat the process. You could even use different colours for different developers, green is D75, blue is Xtol, etc.

The issue for me though, 5L is still a lot of developer, when you consider that 2 years ago, I bought a 1L bottle of developer, and there is some left. I need to toss it....

 

[Lee L]

Paul,

I posted more to confirm the warnings against the air-evacs than to request help.

I've been using brown glass and straight sided brown plastic bottles for a long time, with marbles for the oxygen sensitive stuff. About 20 years ago the local mom & mom pharmacy (two women pharmacists owned it) sold out to a chain, and I collected their remaining amber glass flask style bottles for free. I also ordered some Boston rounds a few years ago in sizes to break liters into smaller units to prevent oxidation.

Lee

 

[wogster]

Paul,

I posted more to confirm the warnings against the air-evacs than to request help.

I've been using brown glass and straight sided brown plastic bottles for a long time, with marbles for the oxygen sensitive stuff. About 20 years ago the local mom & mom pharmacy (two women pharmacists owned it) sold out to a chain, and I collected their remaining amber glass flask style bottles for free. I also ordered some Boston rounds a few years ago in sizes to break liters into smaller units to prevent oxidation.

Lee

I posted that more for other who may be new and looking for info. I still wonder though, if I have 5L of concentrate, and pack it in tightly capped glass bottles and seal the caps with wax, how long will it last that way, a year, 2 years, 5 years? Fixer is easier, I can order 1kg of Hypo, and mix however much powder I want.

 

[clayne]

The accordion bottles work fine for me. It's true that at their lowest capacity they still do allow some air but not *that* much air.

Regardless, I've used XTOL from them down to the very last drop and had no issues.

I really wouldn't target for 2 years or 5 years for storing developer. At that rate, even if one is using 1+1 dilution we're talking 20 rolls of film a _year_ if you make it last 2 years. A bit low frequency but I wouldn't be surprised if it held up without issue. Most people who need or desire XTOL are shooting more than 20 rolls a year.

 

[ath]

That's the way I store and use XTOL:

1. prepare a 2.5l solution from a complete package; this solution diluted 1:1 will give the Kodak stock solution.
2. fill four 0.5l soda bottles (PET; they are pretty gas tight) with 0.5l and squeeze the remaining air out.
3. Fill the remaining 0.5l in four brown glass bottles (mine are for 0.1l and are nearly full to the rim with 0.125l).
4. Use the deveolpoer from the glass bottles: 0.125l filled up to 0.5l gives XTOL1+1; that's what I prefer.
5. When all glass bottles are empty open a plastic bottle and refill all four glass bottles.

Storage up to 1 year (and more) in the dark (temperature from 0°C (winter) up to 30°C (summer)) is no problem.
Before developing I place a drop on a film leader snip and check if it turns black. Never had a problem.

 

[sanking]

I personally don't rate Xtol all that high compared to other developers. It is more environmentally friendly than most other developers, which is one of the main reasons it was developed, and it also gives a real increase in film speed with more films. Other than that I see no advantage over D76 or D23, or PMK or Pyrocat-HD, all of which can be used at much less cost than Xtol and are at least as good in terms of grain and accutance.

Sandy King

 

[Brandon D.]

It means that if you expose two films identical and develop the first in D76 (the standard) and the second in XTOL for the same contrast the second film will have more shadow details.
Or, vice versa, you can set a (slightly) higher film speed when using XTOL and get the same shadow detail as with D76.

And if I understand correctly, reducing recommended development times (i.e., under-developing) would also reduce film speed and it would reduce contrast, right?

The look I'm going for is Delta 400 & Delta 100 in XTOL for medium contrast (or for somewhere in-between medium and high contrast) and for good shadow detail.

Maybe something like these (as far as tonality is concerned):
http://flickr.com/photos/phenix_h_k/2239930981/
http://flickr.com/photos/chrisphelps/577496533/in/set-72157600025038694/
http://flickr.com/photos/22417554@N08/2303621179/
http://flickr.com/photos/jorghenstein/150994401/
http://flickr.com/photos/seekingfocus/2437202589/

 

[ath]

And if I understand correctly, reducing recommended development times (i.e., under-developing) would also reduce film speed and it would reduce contrast, right?

Exactly.

 

[Joerg Bergs]

I love XTOL and I use it in all dillutions (1+1 / 1+2 and 1+3) without any problems. The Films I use are T-Max400/Acros100/TX400/HP5/FP4 and the old APX100. I reach the box-speed with these films. With a 1+3 dilution, all my use films have a higher speed (TX400 have 640-800ASA).

I´ve wrote a german practice guide about XTOL. You find it here: http://www.joerg-bergs.de/index.php?id=40 (only in german language, but if you have interest in a english version, I can write it).

 

[Bruce Watson]

Great results with XTOL

I guess that just goes to show me that what's on paper doesn't necessarily mean anything in real life.

... but I am so surprised by the consistently poor results I've been getting with XTOL compared with the datasheets. I though it was just the T-Max films perhaps, but I've tried it with Plus-X and Tri-X and it made them look flat, lifeless and solid gray as well. There are no blacks when I use XTOL. It is all one mass of gray.

If these are your results then indeed you are doing something wrong. I have no idea what since you don't say anything about your process.

I've been using XTOL at 1:3 with a Jobo CPP-2, a 3010 tank, and processing both 5x4 Tri-X and 400Tmax for years. Excellent results every time. And my comparison to HC110 using the same equipment and workflow is just exactly what K0dak showed in the table you referenced.

So... what it is about XTOL is it's great results. If you can figure out why your workflow doesn't work with it and change it, you'll get those results too.

All that said, if you are getting results you like from other developers, why spend the time trying to fix your workflow to make XTOL work for you? Might be better and more fun to spend that time and effort on making photographs! Just sayin'.

 

[jeroldharter]

I just did some BTZS testing of my own with TMAX 100 and TMY-2 and Xtol 1:1.

One advantage I have seen so far (on testing) is that it manages a wider scene brightness range than my TMAX RS developer on both ends of the spectrum. For plus development, it does maintain and even increase film speed above the rated speed. But with minus development the film speed quickly drops off. Also, Xtol does not do well with short development time. Generally speaking, my 4 minute development tests were unusable because the negative was too thin (@ 68 degrees).

 

[clayne]

I'm starting to feel as if it's such a non-issue, that we might as well be asking "What's so great about D-76?" XTOL is a reliable modern developer, easily usable as one's default dev. Why people have any significant issues with it is a mystery to me.

 

[clayne]

I just did some BTZS testing of my own with TMAX 100 and TMY-2 and Xtol 1:1.

One advantage I have seen so far (on testing) is that it manages a wider scene brightness range than my TMAX RS developer on both ends of the spectrum. For plus development, it does maintain and even increase film speed above the rated speed. But with minus development the film speed quickly drops off. Also, Xtol does not do well with short development time. Generally speaking, my 4 minute development tests were unusable because the negative was too thin (@ 68 degrees).

jerold: Not that I recommend 4 minute dev times in any soup, but how many rolls did you actually do @ 4 mins?

 

[jeroldharter]

jerold: Not that I recommend 4 minute dev times in any soup, but how many rolls did you actually do @ 4 mins?

I used 4x5 sheet film, so just 1 sheet.

100 TMAX film responds OK to shorter development times in TMAX RS developer diluted 1:9 in BTZS tubes for minus development but I found that 5.5 minutes is a practical minimum for Xtol with that film.

I did not try development times above 16 minutes.

 

[Brandon D.]

Dilution

Just to clear up my confusion since I'm just learning about film developing:

When you mix the initial powder packets with 5L of water, that makes the stock solution, right?

And once that's finished, from there you can add an additional 5L of water and mix it in to make 1+1 solution (i.e., 10L in all)?

And everyone usually adds it to storage containers, or bottles, after that?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jeroldharter]

Just to clear up my confusion since I'm just learning about film developing:

When you mix the initial powder packets with 5L of water, that makes the stock solution, right?

And once that's finished, from there you can add an additional 5L of water and mix it in to make 1+1 solution (i.e., 10L in all)?

And everyone usually adds it to storage containers, or bottles, after that?

Thanks in advance.

Yes. I store the 5 liters of stock solution in five 1 liter bottles and then mix one shot developer. I use 1:1 dilution (so yes that makes 10 liters total) but others use 1:3. You can test to see what you like best. Don't mix working solution from stock until you are ready to use it.

 

[Brandon D.]

Yes. I store the 5 liters of stock solution in five 1 liter bottles and then mix one shot developer. I use 1:1 dilution (so yes that makes 10 liters total) but others use 1:3. You can test to see what you like best. Don't mix working solution from stock until you are ready to use it.

Well, thank you.

Just to get the hang of the developing process, I'll most likely start out developing two rolls at a time. When feel more confident and more comfortable with the process, I plan to work with 3-5 rolls in one tank.

So for the time being, what I plan to do is divide the stock solution into 8oz. bottles (i.e., equivalent to 236ml per bottle) which will be sufficient for developing two rolls. That way, I can use the whole bottle 8oz. bottle each time I develop two rolls. Yes, I'll end up having a lot of bottles. And yes, I'll be "wasting" a little bit of developer. But I don't mind having a lot of bottles on hand, and I'd rather have a little more developer in the tank anyway. For me, it seems simple.

So essentially, my one shot (2 roll) developing will require only one 8oz. bottle of stock solution each time. No more, no less, and no worries about oxidation due to opening one large bottle of stock solution over and over again.

 

[Chazzy]

Just to clear up my confusion since I'm just learning about film developing:

When you mix the initial powder packets with 5L of water, that makes the stock solution, right?

And once that's finished, from there you can add an additional 5L of water and mix it in to make 1+1 solution (i.e., 10L in all)?

Don't dilute the stock solution all at once. Only dilute the amount of developer which you are actually going to use at a given time.

 

[Brandon D.]

Don't dilute the stock solution all at once. Only dilute the amount of developer which you are actually going to use at a given time.

Thanks for confirming that.

jeroldharter also pointed that out, too. And I'm glad you guys reminded me because it seemed to be my main confusion at first. It makes sense now.

 

[Chazzy]

Since the thread is about the advantages of Xtol, and the chief advantage is the combination of speed and fine grain, let me ask about a comparison. How does Microphen compare on speed and grain, and how does the look of the developer differ, if at all? I ask because I've considered using Microphen for pushing, and wonder whether I would gain anything. I would rather stick to one developer (Xtol) unless Microphen is significantly better at pushing.

 

[Chazzy]

Since I'm asking about Microphen, I will ask about DDX at the same time, since many people seem to use it in a similar way.

 

[srs5694]

So for the time being, what I plan to do is divide the stock solution into 8oz. bottles (i.e., equivalent to 236ml per bottle) which will be sufficient for developing two rolls. That way, I can use the whole bottle 8oz. bottle each time I develop two rolls.

This is one of several techniques that people use to minimize oxidation of partially-used bottles of developer. It's a tried and tested technique, although I myself have never used it.

 

[BetterSense]

I used to use the "multiple small bottles to minimize exposure to air while maintaining convenience" approach to storing stock solution, but now I put all my developer stock solution in a reused 5L mylar-bladder wine box. It's easier, takes up a lot less space, and I can draw an arbitrary amount of stock solution without exposing the contents to air or ever leaving half-empty bottles.

 

[EASmithV]

I won't be making prints. For a while. That's just not an option. I understand the results would be different but the end result I am working with right now is the scan. I know it's not the same as a hard print, but it's the best I can do right now.

Even though it may not be the traditional way, one can see the differences of developers through scanning. I'm not moving from developer to developer to developer; I use the developers I use for their different characteristics and I get fantastic results. XTOL is the only one I've gotten consistently poor results with. People can say it's the scanning and not the developer, but I know I get good results from the other developers. What it looks like on a print is irrelevant to me because I won't be doing any printing. My final product is a scan and then a LightJet RA4 print on Fuji Crystal Archive paper, and I've been getting incredible results with Rodinal and HC-110 especially. I also get great results with TMAX when pushing. Maybe I just don't like XTOL, or maybe XTOL is only good with wet prints.

I understand many people think you can't tell anything about a developer until you make a print in a darkroom, but it's just not true. Maybe you can see more on a print, but all of us don't have the capability to do them. I will be very happy when I don't have to mess with scanning anymore, but for now it's what I have to do.

You could take you negs to like CVS or Penn camera, or some other place with a minilab. The prints will be poor quality to self printed, but may be better than a scan.