" Whats happening to our industry "

[perfect]

i to Roger have not been that trueful , i semi retired at 28 when i finished my services back in 1983 with the parachute reg , so i suppose the business is for the kids & grand kids to give them a start i never had

cheers simon take care all the best .

ps/ i have several of your books by the way !

 

[perfect]

Thats right Petzi , one pic she wanted , but i offered her a second to none package offering alot more , i may have done ok with my photography , but i cant even put a roll of film in the cam for one shot for £50 , unless other clients are in the line ?? for work !

simon

 

[Petzi]

That's OK, but when she came to you wanting one picture, you tried to sell her a package for £ 150.00. Then she found another photographer who would sell her a picture for £ 50.00. How would you decide?

It's a little bit like going to the car merchant, looking for a small passenger car to drive to the supermarket, and then the merchant offers you a great deal on a Mercedes bus.

 

[perfect]

Hi Petzi

i certainly wouldnt of picked a digital imager , that was going to give her a pro-am raw / jpeg image at best ?

And i no she would not pay in excess of £200 for a framed & mounted photograph , so i tried to meet her half way , by offering a package of quality at a exceptionably low pro price ?

simon

 

[JohnArs]

Hi Simon
I would also have loosed 2 Weddings this year if I would not have gone digital!
I now can do it traditional and digital and promote it also. Digital is for the cheapys and negs are for the upper segment!
This sounds even more professinal on a AD if I state I can do booth!!!

 

[perfect]

Hi there Johnars

This is my point exactly , you dont have to shoot digital to offer it , i find by offering my clients both works well to , especially because when they understand that film is superior & why it is used in first instance ?

i have no desire ever to shoot digital , not when a scanned neg jpeg is far better quality than digital it's self ?

cheers Simon

 

[copake_ham]

Hi Dave

again i here whats being said here , & i suppose it is a valid point , & boils down to what we are prepared as individuals to earn ?

i started this business 8 years ago with £50 pounds in my pocket when i rented my first studio & have stuggled to make a honest living since then , having to compete with digi methods & imagers !

i have a family to keep & put food on the table for & 2 studios & other related costs to pay for . I offered this lady bottom dollar uk rates for a good package at home , with studio lighting ! By the time i take my petrol costs , a roll of film & processing costs , with my time allocated the profit margin is relatively low to say the least ?

Here in the uk to process a roll of pro 35 film at 12x8 prints is on average £ 24 + vat , working photographers here in the uk start at around £120 per hour , my rates are £150 per hour including all materials ?

yep i could do this commission for £75 like you suggest , but iam affraid poor quality digital imaging will be the finish of film photographers , as the majority of the public seem to be choosing cheap & nasty services over quality here in the uk anyway ?

simon

Simon,

There's no one here, I think, who would disagree with all you are saying. But just one question - is it "usual" in the UK to have "professional" prom pictures taken? I'm not certain - but don't think that this is case in the US.

Perhaps the request itself was a bit "out of the ordinary" and that explains the price "balk"?

 

[Roger Hicks]

i cant even put a roll of film in the cam for one shot for £50

Dear Simon,

This is the important point. There are many amateurs are willing, in effect, to work for nothing. They aren't running a business; they're looking for a way to make their hobby tax-allowable.

As long as they make a tiny 'profit' at the end of the year, they don't care if they have worked 500 hours for $500. Their analysis is that their photography has cost them nothing -- which it hasn't, of course, unless you cost their time. Then, at a nominal $21 an hour, it has cost them $10,000...

Again, this doesn't apply only in photography. Many people are so pitifully grateful to be published (especially in the United States) that they will work for no advance and a miserably small royalty, and put up with arrogant and high-handed editing.

The net effect of all this is similar to what happens when you 'outsource' jobs to the Far East: the market is driven down to the level of what the hobbyist, who subsidizes his work out of his day job, is willing to accept.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[perfect]

Copake , i dont no what your trying to say ? its not usual to have pro prom pics taken ? is it also not usual to have pro wedding pics taken ? you are off topic ? Also i dont mind if members agree with me or not " hence the debate " is open for discussion .




Mr Roger Hicks , i agree with all you have said & in your last post , i now have a better understanding & your statements confirm for me my thoughts exactly !

cheers Si

 

[perfect]

Copake , i correct my self for last post ?

what do you mean is it usual for pro prom pics , "like i said before , but now the right" way round !

"is it usual for pro wedding pics ? "


i for one do not no were your coming from with this statement ? Here in the UK if you want a professional tradesman you hire one , for professional end results ? " is it not like that were you live ? "

simon E smith .

 

[Steve Smith]

To me, the idea of taking prom pictures at the customer's home seems an expensive way for the customer to get the picture(s) they want.

It would make more sense to be set up at the prom venue to do individual and group portraits where you have a lot of potential customers. Is this something you do already?



Steve.

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Answer in short - the picture produced by the £50 digital photographer was adequate for this client's needs and she could not see the reason to pay more. This is a situation which is going to occur more and more among photographers selling to the public - I personally shoot on film and will continue to do so as long as film is available, but, at the same time, I would have difficulty explaining to a client like yours why an image shot on a camera like my Fuji E550 (bought as a soon-to-be-discontinued model for £150, giving a 35 MB RGB file) was better than a film image at a print size of anything up to 11x14" ( I can see the difference, many clients can't and the ones that can are in many cases not worried).

It is undeniable that the social photography market is contracting violently, because many of its needs can be met by untrained workers with digital equipment - the photographers that survive will be those with the best marketing skills (best example in the UK - Annabel Williams, a highly intelligent and very hard-working lady who I feel has at best mediocre skills as a photographer but is the most effective marketer I have seen in a good long while - against a background of a contracting market with plunging average prices, she has made a FORTUNE!).

Regards,

David

 

[perfect]

Steve ,

firstly i'm a professional school photographer & have been commissioned by eves & ravenscroft in the past ?

here in the uk , there is no such thing as proms , we call it school dance / diner or a nother term but not prom . This client actual did ask for pre-prom pics of her daughter at home !

As for is this a service i do , yes i do any photographic service within reason , but to be more clearer i did , but do not anymore do Graduation photography , but will do private client graduation photographs ?

Alot of my commissions are secured because i'm prepared to tread were other photographers will not go , probably because of there lack of experience or competents ?

I'm a photographer & my motto is i photograph anything , not just one field / area ? as a professional & this attitude as got me up the pecking list with my clients ?

Simon E Smith

 

[perfect]

David H Bebb

lets get real here , a 35mb file of your cam for starters is inferior to a film file/jpeg

from my 35 mm film cam , i can produce a 499MB file/jpeg , for professional large format printing . I offer my clients basic 6mb , 18mb & 32 mb file /jpegs as part of my normal services ?

s e smith

ps/ i think you to are of topic , film is pure quality & in my opinion will always be ........

 

[perfect]

i'm going to close this topic with one last statement , as it seems to be going of topic ?

" I do not even consider ppl who use digtal 35mm cams as photographers , but only as digital imagers " ? This is made clear on all my marketing & business sites !

Photography is about painting with light , by exposing emulsion to light , NOT a light sensor to light ? Any photographer who even considers / thinks digital can compete with film is foooling themselfs !

i believe in time film photographers will be a sorted service , when the client / public realise that if it's quality required they must commission film !

simon

 

[leeturner]

i believe in time film photographers will be a sorted service , when the client / public realise that if it's quality required they must commission film !

simon

Simon, I think you overestimate the requirements of the general public. They are thrilled with their new 1.3 MP phonecams, rave about the compressed MP3 sounds and think that Ikea is quality and style. We used to buy a TV or household appliance and use it until it broke. We now change it regularly because the colour/style/technology is wrong.
There will always be a market for quality along with the consumers willing to pay for it but it will be a decreasing market. As was discussed in Roger's food thread, is it the end result that counts or the way we get there? Is the average punter interested in the process or just in the end product?
As David pointed out, it's down to marketing and adapting your business to todays market. That isn't to say that you have to use digital capture, in fact the big selling point of analog is the "hand made" aspect which is much easier to quantify in B&W rather than colour images. As you pointed out in your first post, you offer the client digital files on CD. To my mind once you offer this service you are competing directly with the fully digital studio and, as far as the client is concerned, there is no difference in the capture method as the end result from both studios is a digital file. What do they view it on? Probably a crappy uncalibrated monitor that can't come close to the final print.

I have to be honest and feel that 35mm type colour portraiture is going to become predominately digital in both capture and output and that if one wants to stay with film then the whole workflow has to remain traditional. This could mean changing format, moving to B&W or looking at alternative processes in order to retain the hand made marketing angle.

 

[perfect]

Hi leeturner & welcome to this post , you have some valid points !

As for me over estimating the public , certainly not with my customers , the main reason i offer digital services , is to show that when recorded on film , the quality is far better , but still a second to film ?

You see i have stuck it out like many film photographers have , during the digital introduction , which as & still causes a market slump in our industry , but my figures show we are coming back , throu public demand !

Here in the UK , you can get your wedding photographed for as little as £ 180.00 by a digital imager earning a little pocket money at the week end . Fortunately for me & others we are not in that market & still demand & get the right fees for our professional services , just not as often as before ?

simon e s

 

[perfect]

Further to my last post & this topic !

If iam correct in my assumptions , when film comes back big time , the digital imagers who are not converts will have to go back to school , so to speak & learn how to put a roll of film in the camera & use it ???

simon es

 

[naturephoto1]

Simon,

I participate in a large number of Art and Art and Craft shows per year in the US. I have experienced much the same that you are experiencing in this industry as well. I have been selling hybrid printed images from my transparencies for the last 10 years with those coming off of a LightJet or a Chromira machine for about the last 8 years. The make-up of sales of my work has changed dramatically over this time with much of my work now selling in larger form. Unfortunately in the last year and a half my sales have fallen dramatically in part due to the economy, the group of people that is my target market seems to have taken a "hit", and I believe the affects of digital to photography. It appears that the public now feels that they can do much of the same work, they do not have a discerning eye, they want large images for little money, and either they do see, don't care about, or are not interested in quality. I still do get customers that appreciate the quality of the images and finished product. Hopefully things will improve for most of us, but this may take some time.

Rich

 

[perfect]

Hi Rich

EXACTLY mate !

i wish you luck with your career & future sales , hopefully things will improve in the not to distance future !

regards simon

 

[leeturner]

Simon, I'd hate as much as anyone on this forum to see the reduction or cessation of any type of film. I agree with you that there is still a niche market for top quality analog portrait photography and I think it will eventually be viewed as an exclusive medium providing that there is a discernable difference between the end result and other image production methods. However, as a few of us saw at Ilford, the paper manufacturers are now producing fibre based paper for use in digital enlargers. This is at the demand of fine art photographers who are capturing digitally yet wish the final print to be made on a traditional FB paper. It's a bit of a dichotomy as this will ensure the continued production of FB paper and the neccessary darkroom skills but will blur the line between the capture methods.

I'm with you that there will be a resurgence in film based photography but in what sector of the industry I don't know.

 

[perfect]

coool leeturner

lets hope the turn around is soon ? its the old cliche were have all the glossy traditional mags gone ?

several years ago in one of fujis comps , not one digital image was considered good enough quality for a cover image ?

As far as iam concerned digital is fine for the consumer & just another money making racket , that will / is backfiring & for sure will dissappear in time all but for consumer use .

computers are for doing what we are doing talking & for film photographers to exploit imaging to it's full potential ?? Take a look at my sites , digital only gets negative comments , unless it is out & out professional all the way , & i still urge prospective clients to view photographers folios before even thinking of commissioning a photographer ?

cheers simon es .

 

[perfect]

Any way fellow photographers , i have enjoyed this topic immensly & now i think ppl have a better idea were iam coming from . " i hate digital & everything it stands for "

The days are gone for photographers like Atget , hicks , lithcfield , Mc Cullin & other greats , but i believe they will return ! I will certainly carry on shouting for us film photographers until the day i die , & i suppose carry on being banned from digital imagers forums , who think digital is photography !lol

Simon es .

( i dont sell my work for pennies to get it published , every roll of film loaded in my camera is potential publication work , even if only in my wedding albums !

 

[bjorke]

" i hate digital & everything it stands for "

A curious statement considering photos like http://www.perfect-imagesprophotos.co.uk/resources/_wsb_514x535_Fresco.jpg on your web site.

Sorry "perfect" but your work is too scattered and I'm not surprised that the woman balked at your quote and got another shooter. MATERIALS SHOULD NEVER BE A SELLING POINT. If a sculptor is good, who cares if they work in gold or clay? Saying "my photos are good quality becuase I use film" is ludicrous, just as it would be ludicrous to say "my photos are good because I use digital." Neither statement addresses issues that are at the core of what makes pictures "good" or not (or "worth 150 quid or not"). You can grouse about some cheepy digi shooter but no one has seen his pictures Maybe he genuinely specalizes in the sorts of pictures your non-client desired, REGARDLESS of price? You haven't presented anything that would indicate otherwise, all I can see is that you've complained that you lost a bid. Stop pointing fingers at the world, figure out how to make your business a more compelling draw.

One thing I'd suggest is to stop saying "I still treat my profession as a hobby" on your front page

 

[perfect]

Byorke !!

what do you mean my work is to scattered ?

to stop pointing fingers ?

as for digi works & web addresses , of course there in my set up , thats what i do , exploit digital methods with film ???

i think you are way of topic here & wouldnt be suprised if you are one of these photographers who shoot digital & sell there work for free ?

dont come on this post or any of my posts withuot substance & facts lol lol lol

simon edward smith