What's going on??
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Good point julie, but most realize that the internet info , we ought to take with a grain of salt. At least IMO. Peer review is not like it used to be. It used to be if any one wanted to get information out. They needed to write a book. Therefor many editors would need to sign off plus publisher would be highly selective. Due to heavy cost. All of that tended to weed out the bad seeds. On chat rooms that is not the case. An one can claim expertise or knowledge. Anyone who thinks or believes information givin is correct or" real " is naive. Imo. Again chat rooms should be viewed as entertainment. Any ideals higher than that is a fools errand. Just my two cents. I personally do not trust any one elses experience, but my own. I would like to trust, but relaying info that is accurate as the indendee indended it is fraught with so many problems.
It is my intent to mostly ignore this thread. However the problem with the previous advice to ignore repetitive threads is that it leaves answering to the same group who gave dubious information previously. This is the advantage to doing a search before posting a new thread. The older threads have hopefully thrashed this all out. There appears to be few people here who appreciate just how hard it is to stamp out bad information. Like the Hydra cut off one head and another grows to replace it.
As I mentioned before in today's world it is absolutely necessary to know how to search effectively. The following is a very brief but useful article.
http://hanlib.sou.edu/searchtools/searchtips.html
As I mentioned before in today's world it is absolutely necessary to know how to search effectively. The following is a very brief but useful article.
http://hanlib.sou.edu/searchtools/searchtips.html
Agreed, Greg... If one wants peer reviewed material one needs to go to a bonifide academic journal. If one wants reliable information then a book or internet can suffice... but both can be published by either a knowledgeable or less-than-knowledgeable person and must be evaluated within the context of author credibility and publication date and probably other factors. Even peer reviewed academic journal articles need to be evaluated critically. There is no earthly absolute source of absolute knowledge... despite what some egotistical earthlings think. We all have experiences and we all have opinions, and we all have sphincters.
I agree with a lot of what you said but forums are a bit more than entertainment, I think. I often use them to get some basic ideas about a technique or process but then go to books or even online articles for detailed information. Sometimes the forum conversations help me understand what I need to be looking for in books.
MattKing
Moderator
Okay, but does that mean a whole bunch of us are going to die in the next couple of hours?
I do understand though why someone like Julie McLeod (who is relatively new to APUG and film) might be bothered more by a rude or abrupt response than I might. Not because she is more thin skinned than I am, but rather because I'mm more comfortable in knowing what I know and what I don't know about things photographic. Also, I've got a pretty good handle on what to expect from a lot of the "regulars" here on APUG. And Julie is probably much less susceptible to being bothered by that rudeness then when she first appeared on APUG, because one quickly learns to discount either or both of the attitude and content of the rude posts.
The real concern is those who are brand new to the site, and uncertain about their knowledge. That is why I try to take pains to welcome new members when they first ask a question. Even if that welcome is accompanied by something like a search recommendation, the tone of that recommendation is what matters the most.
Okay, but does that mean a whole bunch of us are going to die in the next couple of hours?
I do understand though why someone like Julie McLeod (who is relatively new to APUG and film) might be bothered more by a rude or abrupt response than I might. Not because she is more thin skinned than I am, but rather because I'mm more comfortable in knowing what I know and what I don't know about things photographic. Also, I've got a pretty good handle on what to expect from a lot of the "regulars" here on APUG. And Julie is probably much less susceptible to being bothered by that rudeness then when she first appeared on APUG, because one quickly learns to discount either or both of the attitude and content of the rude posts.
The real concern is those who are brand new to the site, and uncertain about their knowledge. That is why I try to take pains to welcome new members when they first ask a question. Even if that welcome is accompanied by something like a search recommendation, the tone of that recommendation is what matters the most.
Matt, I appreciate that you are cognizant of what it's like to be a newcomer like me. Having you and other experienced folks appreciate what it means to be a beginner and being willing to take the extra care to tailor replies to the experience level of the newcomer is what keeps people like me coming back.
It's true that I don't like it when I see experienced members reply rudely but I'm able to set that aside and remember that many experienced members are just the opposite. What bugs me more is the attitude that APUG shouldn't even be in the business of providing information to beginners and that they should go off and search for answers elsewhere. Luckily, it hasn't been the most common attitude expressed in this thread but it still gets under my skin just as it would if when asking for help finding something in the grocery store, a staff person told me to find it myself or go to another store.
+1 to last sentence...
Good point Julie. I mostly use the forums to get a lead about certain problem, then I go to a more dedicated source to keep with the research, unless the forum peer is a trusted and well know user (for me at least). I try to share my limited knownledge in the same way, to try to lead, not to give everything done for the OP, mostrly due that he/she may skip some useful experience if they do exactly as I did and because maybe my aproach to the problema wasnt the best.
Regards.
Marcelo
What bugs me more is the attitude that APUG shouldn't even be in the business of providing information to beginners and that they should go off and search for answers elsewhere. Luckily, it hasn't been the most common attitude expressed in this thread but it still gets under my skin just as it would if when asking for help finding something in the grocery store, a staff person told me to find it myself or go to another store.
If we go back to the OP's initial post the thread hasn't really professed anywhere particularly useful yet.
Like a few others I get quite a few requests for help privately by PM and even more by email. It takes considerable time to reply in some cases and sometimes some research.
For a few years now I've felt that the best ways of helping is often one to one mentoring, I guess that comes from having attended and later run quite a few workshops. In the past people joined Camera Clubs/Photographic Societies to learn but they are now almost totally digital and here in the UK few colleges run Analog evening classes (many or most Degree courses still have film modules).
What I'm really saying is that actual hands on experience whether help with metering, using LF, printing & mounting (just some examples) are much easier to grasp this way. I see a few from this and other Forums each year one to one and also organise occasional regional meet ups (usually cross Forum so not just APUG).
I know for instance that there's an APUG/LF group in Calgary and there's plenty of others but I think there's room for far more.
Ian
OP
OP
Getting people organized here is a joke..I've reached out to people over the years..he'll I could teach you more in 2 days than you could learn in 5
I think that some of the sponsors advertisers here could help a little it's in their interests.
Your maths is wrong
, I think someone can learn more in a day or so with good instruction than in a month or year of poor suggestions on a Forum, and that's the crux of the issue.Ian
MattKing
Moderator
Julie:
I think that Gerald's comments may have been misunderstood (at least a little bit).
I think that he is of the opinion that the structure and methods of interaction in sites like APUG is not the best choice for beginners who want to learn. And to a certain extent I agree with him. Discussion sites like this are better at dealing with discrete parcels of information than they are at helping build a concrete foundation of knowledge.
I'm more optimistic than I think he is about how much these fora can contribute to the beginner, but it is really difficult some times to impart the necessary context. Face to face interaction plus a good book are way better.
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What bugs me more is the attitude that APUG shouldn't even be in the business of providing information to beginners and that they should go off and search for answers elsewhere. Luckily, it hasn't been the most common attitude expressed in this thread but it still gets under my skin just as it would if when asking for help finding something in the grocery store, a staff person told me to find it myself or go to another store.
When you buy a computer, you don't get a book with it telling you all about using computers. Why? Because it is so involved, and common knowledge to so many, that you are expected to learn it elsewhere, before you buy a computer. Most know this, and would not expect such a book to be included. Internet forums have a similiar situation.
The topic of any given forum may be very complex, as is photography. Internet forums have been around long enough, like computers, that some things are just understood, or should be, like the fact that any given forum may not be very useful unless you have sufficient background in the topic to begin with. It is therefore surprising to some members of forums that there are people who don't realize this, and ask a simple, basic, beginner type question on a forum, indicating they lack a backround, and are told to go elsewhere first to get that background and information.
That is probably a good answer, as it is for their own good.
An internet forum is not the place for beginners to try to learn that background.
It should be obvious then that the real value of an internet forum is realized after a person has a background, and not realized by trying to get that backround from the forum itself, as many think they can do, and sadly, are encouraged to do by some. In trying to do so, they can walk away confused and mislead, and can just create frustration for those who are knowledgeable in the forum topic.
Someone pointed out earlier that there is lately a lot of wrong information on the internet and forums. That is not surprising, when you have people who have learned what they know only from internet forums, and not "elsewhere".
After the basics are learned from books, articles, etc, I recommend one go into the past threads of this site, going back to the beginning and reading through forums and threads relating to one's topics of interest. APUG probably has the greatest concentration of good knowledge and experience of analog photography found anywhere, and it is all there for us anytime. Reading through, one can sort out the right from the wrong, truth from myth. It may take a little time to do it, but learning takes time.
Then, if one cannot find an answer to a question there, one can always post the question.
I have a real life experience with asking questions on old topics.... today I need to know if there is anyone using Today paper for lith, not old paper , but current paper available in stock somewhere Today.... If I was new to this site and asked this question, even though there are ton's of old threads about paper for lith, how many of these threads would be appropriate to my question.. I would be pissed to be told to google my question.
Our industry is changing so rapidly. The answer to my question can only be answered by one or two people here currently working in Lith Today and have purchased within weeks.
Our industry is changing so rapidly. The answer to my question can only be answered by one or two people here currently working in Lith Today and have purchased within weeks.
I understand and agree that this might not be the best place for a beginner to learn the craft from start to finish. For my part, I don't consider it to be more than a supplement to other means of learning. In the short time since I picked up film again, I have taken classes at a local photography school and acquired a nice little library of reference materials but I still come here and value what I've gained here. I don't participate much but absorb information that I can then relate to what I've learned through my first hand experiences. I don't think people should assume that beginners who show up here aren't also seeking information from the more traditional sources.
By the way, my comment above wasn't about any one member specifically, but about a general tone I thought I was hearing in this thread which gave me the impression that newcomers were considered a big old bother with their repetitious questions, laziness, and ignorance. Maybe I did misunderstand the intent or maybe I'm being too sensitive, I don't know. But I do know that I sort of wish I'd never opened this thread in the first place because it has left me feeling a little less likely to plunge in and ask questions than I might have been before.
MattKing
Moderator
I'm surprised, because I would think that the questions you would be likely to ask now (given the work you have done) are ones that are much more suited to APUG's structure.
The irritation that some of us feel sometimes at some of the questions is at least somewhat related to how the questions are asked.
If someone is open about how new to this they are, as well as how unfamiliar they are with APUG, they are much more likely to be treated gently and given lots of guidance (which may include some search recommendations) than someone who bursts in and seem to be asking a question that contains its own (potentially incorrect) answer. That experience too is not uncommon.
If you see a needlessly rude or misguided rude comment the click the "Report this post" button.
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- Sirius Glass
- Deleted
I never have placed anyone on an ignore list. The input of every single person is of value to me -- one way or another.
PE
And, to reply in-part, to RPC, learning analog photography is very complex if you want to do it right but learning it for simple tasks is easy. Very much like learning a computer. Hard or easy.
PE
PE
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