What's going on??

[Gerald C Koch]

Julie:
I think that Gerald's comments may have been misunderstood (at least a little bit).
I think that he is of the opinion that the structure and methods of interaction in sites like APUG is not the best choice for beginners who want to learn. And to a certain extent I agree with him. Discussion sites like this are better at dealing with discrete parcels of information than they are at helping build a concrete foundation of knowledge.
I'm more optimistic than I think he is about how much these fora can contribute to the beginner, but it is really difficult some times to impart the necessary context. Face to face interaction plus a good book are way better.

YES, thanks Matt.

When you buy a computer, you don't get a book with it telling you all about using computers. Why? Because it is so involved, and common knowledge to so many, that you are expected to learn it elsewhere, before you buy a computer. Most know this, and would not expect such a book to be included. Internet forums have a similiar situation.

The topic of any given forum may be very complex, as is photography. Internet forums have been around long enough, like computers, that some things are just understood, or should be, like the fact that any given forum may not be very useful unless you have sufficient background in the topic to begin with. It is therefore surprising to some members of forums that there are people who don't realize this, and ask a simple, basic, beginner type question on a forum, indicating they lack a backround, and are told to go elsewhere first to get that background and information.

That is probably a good answer, as it is for their own good.

An internet forum is not the place for beginners to try to learn that background.

It should be obvious then that the real value of an internet forum is realized after a person has a background, and not realized by trying to get that backround from the forum itself, as many think they can do, and sadly, are encouraged to do by some. In trying to do so, they can walk away confused and mislead, and can just create frustration for those who are knowledgeable in the forum topic.

Someone pointed out earlier that there is lately a lot of wrong information on the internet and forums. That is not surprising, when you have people who have learned what they know only from internet forums, and not "elsewhere".

After the basics are learned from books, articles, etc, I recommend one go into the past threads of this site, going back to the beginning and reading through forums and threads relating to one's topics of interest. APUG probably has the greatest concentration of good knowledge and experience of analog photography found anywhere, and it is all there for us anytime. Reading through, one can sort out the right from the wrong, truth from myth. It may take a little time to do it, but learning takes time.

Then, if one cannot find an answer to a question there, one can always post the question.

+1 I like the computer analogy.

I would like to add an analogy of my own. We often get threads from people who have difficulty loading SS reels. One could write paragraphs on how to do it. In the end you would have something quite inferior to what the poster would get from a 5 minutes HOWTO video. It's not flippant or uncaring to point someone to a site other than APUG. I'm sorry that Peter and Julie feel that way.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

where is drew wiley ?\ he always seemed to comment "well" on most topics.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Speaking as someone who has gone through all the complexity and come full circle, I respectfully disagree with PE on this. I would honestly say with some good basic instruction and sticking to manufacturer directions, it is quite easy to make technically excellent negatives.

I learned photography decades before the internet existed. Without any source of personal instruction I read books starting out with Kodak's excellent J series of publications. I know of others that did exactly the same. The books are still there even if one has to buy a used copy. So while APUG is nice it is not absolutely required in order to learn how to take pictures , develop film and make prints. As I have mentioned before, anyone really interested in photography should be building up a library of their own. I still routinely consult Adams, Mason and Glafkides among others and seldom resort to the internet. As Groucho noted "Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend, inside of a dog is too dark to read"

 

[BrianShaw]

Groucho was correct!

 

[KenS]

As I approach my 65th year under the dark-cloth I'm now approaching the time at which I find that I'm finding out that I've probably forgotten more about the how's and why's of making a good photograph that what (as of to-day) I can actually 'remember'. In the 'early times' I would ask my mentor a question seeking the answer to my 'how' or the 'why'... and he would answer as simply as possible. A year or so later his answer became "think about it"... probably it is not that he thought my question was 'stupid', but I believe he was gently forcing me to apply some 'reasoning' and come up with 'my own path out of the forest'.... sometimes that 'worked' well enough for my needs... but there were a few occasions he felt HAD to 'step in' to prevent a mistake that would have been some- what 'wasteful'... and applied either the gentle "Gibbsian" slap ... or a good 'bash' on the head using his 'manual' lens shutter (a black velvet-lined bowler hat) to assist in directing my reasoning.

Ken

 

[Photo Engineer]

I respectfully disagree with PE on this. I would honestly say with some good basic instruction, and sticking with manufacturer directions, it is quite easy to make technically excellent negatives. Printing is more complex (and obviously involves artistry), but is relatively linear and logical in the progression of techniques.

After about 50 years in photography, I thought I knew printing. Then, at a workshop at the Formulary, David Vestal and Al Weber taught me split grade printing and one fact - "bigger is not always better". I ended up with a beautiful 4x5 print from a 120 neg on an 8x10 sheet with white borders and two different contrast grades using dodging.

I could never teach that on the internet unless I did a video. Even then it might require two way video conferencing or something like it.

PE

 

[Julie McLeod]

I would like to add an analogy of my own. We often get threads from people who have difficulty loading SS reels. One could write paragraphs on how to do it. In the end you would have something quite inferior to what the poster would get from a 5 minutes HOWTO video. It's not flippant or uncaring to point someone to a site other than APUG. I'm sorry that Peter and Julie feel that way.

I have not been very clear, it would seem. I would be grateful if I asked for help and as part of a reply, I was directed to a pertinent and useful resource elsewhere. I would feel let down if the response was more along the lines of "a Google search would provide you with the answer to your question".

 

[Photo Engineer]

Michael, these techniques are difficult in order to to make prizewinning photos!

PE

 

[tedr1]

There is so much to learn........making prints helps, classes help, books help, the internet helps, forums help, we need it ALL

 

[Ai Print]

I have not been very clear, it would seem. I would be grateful if I asked for help and as part of a reply, I was directed to a pertinent and useful resource elsewhere. I would feel let down if the response was more along the lines of "a Google search would provide you with the answer to your question".

In a place that calls it self a community, you are well within your right to expect that.

I am self taught but I gained mentors in my formative years and they did help my direction a fair bit. I have learned by doing, reading, asking questions of mentors and in the past 15 years or so, by participating on forums and asking questions, mostly to do with black and white film, processing and printing. I have also taken workshops with mentors, get very critical portfolio reviews every 3 years to get serious feedback.

The more I learned, the easier it became to search for answers....if you don't know what you are looking for, it can be impossible to search. And if you are new to all this, some books are seriously out of date in the analog world when it comes to referring to film and papers, several films and papers are gone and new ones have rarely taken their place.

When it comes to the young photographers at a college I mentor at, book learning accounts for less than 5% of how these people learn. The rest is hands on, lectures, links to pertinent websites, you tube videos, etc. Maybe it is because I like to mentor, I see no reason to make newcomers to this place pay their "Dues" by sending them on a wild goose chase while the rest of us who are more experienced get to engage in "In-the-know" banter right in front of them.

Ask any question you want, many community members will be more than happy to help.

 

[RPC]

I could have probably chosen a better word than "complex" in my post. I simply meant there are many facets to photography. Whether they are easy or hard to learn depends on the individual.

 

[Sean]

I've noticed several long time members going off on new comers questions . ..what's up with that?
If you want this place to be just nasty go start your own forum called NASTY ANALOG PHOTOGRAPHY. .PLAY NICE PEOPLE THIS IS BORING ...
Have a nice day
Peter

I'm definitely seeing more of it lately, not just with new members either. I've posted a recent announcement urging everyone to report this behavior.

 

[Halford]

I'm very grateful that you have posted that announcement, Sean. I have often lately wanted to reassure newcomers that they should ignore the grumpy old men.

We are living in tense and anxious times. Communities like this can be a refuge, but only if we make sure that they remain so.

 

[Sean]

I'm very grateful that you have posted that announcement, Sean. I have often lately wanted to reassure newcomers that they should ignore the grumpy old men.

We are living in tense and anxious times. Communities like this can be a refuge, but only if we make sure that they remain so.

I'd "like" your post if there was a like button

 

[Ai Print]

We are living in tense and anxious times.

We are also living in amazing times to be a fan of film and the darkroom, just so many opportunities to live the analog life.

I truly welcome newcomers to this forum and to the film and darkroom world. I often find I have a lot to learn from those who have fresh perspectives, not just those who have decades of experience like my self.

 

[Halford]

We are also living in amazing times to be a fan of film and the darkroom, just so many opportunities to live the analog life.

Oh I agree completely - it is in many ways a wonderful time to be an analog user. I have, on a very limited budget, managed to get to work with gear and learn imaging techniques that were unthinkable to me not so long ago. Who knows whether this will all last forever. It's here and enjoyable now. Let people come and enjoy.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

You know, i don't think it needs changing very much, except insofar as its members are able to adapt to the way the world changes and continues to change.

If sean thought it a good idea to have a beginne's forum it's fine by me. I'm less sure that there needs to be a separate bpug.

Apug is the home of photographic orthodoxy and conservatism. In its own way that's not necessarily a bad thing,but it perhaps also means that it tends to be populated by an older demographic who are more used to a model of learning where the respected expert directs the learning of the admiring student.

Forums, perhaps the Internet generally, or even education generally over the last few decades, encourages a flatter more dialogic model of learning, and younger newcomers to film may easily be deterred by an insistence that they learn in what might seem to them to be obsolete modes of learning.

By the same token, traditionalists may find themselves irritated and resistant to what might seem demanding or lazy requests for help that don't fit their own model of what people "should" do.

I'm from a pre-Internet age too. I make an effort to try and remember that I'm a dinosaur ...

I agree. I spent four years as a high school teacher. Telling someone to 'read the book,' as some posters have suggested, is fine for a literature class. (I know because that's what I taught!) Not so much for something like photography. When I was in art school, the photo professor told us that his teaching philosophy was that you cannot fully UNDERSTAND the processes involved in photography unless you see someone actually doing it. This is true, I think, and that applies to both film and digital photography, to darkroom work, camera work, photoshop editing, studio lighting, etc.

I have a tutorial website with a number of tutorials for different photographic processes and tasks. Some of the tutorials are written, with photos to illustrate what the text says, and some are videos I made and posted to youtube. The videos, where the learner can actually watch me go through the whole procedure of whatever it is they want to learn (developing a roll of film, mixing a chemical, agitation, scanning film, etc.) are by far the most popular of my tutorials. I get emails every day from people thanking me for the videos, and many of these people tell me that they had read how to do 'it' (whatever 'it' is they're trying to do) and still didn't fully understand until they saw it actually being done on my videos.

I get irritated too seeing so many people getting nasty with beginner questions. I try to answer things that I know the answers to, even if the question has been asked a million times. I'm used to it. I was a high school teacher. I had 6 classes a day, each studying the SAME MATERIAL. That means I had to repeat the same lesson 6 times! Because some kids need extra help, I sometimes taught things that, to me (a 40 year old man with a masters degree in literature) were so simple; yet to my teenage students who have had little exposure to literature, the material could be hard for them. I had to understand that the kids were not literary scholars, at least not yet! I try to help people with photo questions with that same thought in mind.

 

[Sean]

By the same token, traditionalists may find themselves irritated and resistant to what might seem demanding or lazy requests for help that don't fit their own model of what people "should" do.

And in this case we need to encourage them to follow one of two choices. 1) completely ignore the request and move on 2) answer the request by making a positive contribution to the thread.

 

[Halford]

One of the problems with "why are you bothering us when you could have googled it" is that even knowing what question to ask and how to ask it, and how to navigate the kinds of information available and the way it is structured, takes some familiarity with the history of a discipline. I know I have sometimes failed to find relevant past threads for instance, because I hadn't used quite the right terms in the search query.

A little patience, generosity and politeness never killed anyone.

 

[Julie McLeod]

And in this case we need to encourage them to follow one of two choices. 1) completely ignore the request and move on 2) answer the request by making a positive contribution to the thread.

Sean, thank you for putting an emphasis on this statement. Even though many others have recommended this repeatedly in this thread, it's excellent to have you support it.

 

[Julie McLeod]

I'd "like" your post if there was a like button

I would have liked to "like" SO many posts in this thread. I really didn't want to muck things up with even more of my comments but I was grateful for many supportive and welcoming statements here. A "like" button would have been perfect for this situation. (I guess the idea of a "like" button was been nixed before but dang, it would be nice to have. )

 

[BrianShaw]

... so is our job done? After 16 pages of chatter did you get the results you desired, Peter Schrager?

 

[bvy]

I was also happy for the announcement, but I think it addresses only part of the problem. People can come off in an abrupt or standoffish way without blatantly violating site rules. This is just as unwelcoming and potentially detrimental to retaining new members. Not much you can do about that, I suppose. It behooves us all to be civil, especially to newcomers.

 

[Toffle]

... so is our job done? After 16 pages of chatter did you get the results you desired, Peter Schrager?

I'd like to think yes, but the proof will be found in the replies to threads elsewhere in the forum.

'nuff said.

 

[Bob Carnie]

where is drew wiley ?\ he always seemed to comment "well" on most topics.

Drew is in astronaut training preparing to meet new worlds as our ambassador.