What's going on??

[Sirius Glass]

Regarding so called "necrobumping" or the problem of "I didn't know I was looking at/responding to an old thread"... I always thought there was a very simple solution to that. Give post headers more than one year old a slightly different color. It's an instant and effective visual cue that doesn't take up any space. It also assists in finding the first new post in a long thread of old ones. Something like this...

View attachment 176274

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[Sirius Glass]

I have too reasons to be on APUG, the second is the most important to me:

1. Get information, ideas or help that cannot be found elsewhere.
2. Preserve photographic information and helping those who are learning about photography. Over the decades many people too the time to help me and I want to spend some of my time every day to play it forward.

A little patience goes a long way.

 

[RPC]

As does 15 years worth of APUG archives.

 

[Ai Print]

In this day and age it is a required skill to know how to do an effective web search. It is not within the purview of APUG to teach these skills. They now teach this is grade school.

There was a point in time a few years back that the tone was so rude on here, I told Sean that I gave a recommendation to faculty at the school I mentor young people at to stay away and look elsewhere for a collaborative atmosphere. They took it seriously and young photographers in this program went elsewhere to places like the discussion groups on Flickr for example for all things analog.

Then it improved, I returned and pointed students in this direction again. I am happy to see Peter's posting of this topic, I had not really noticed because I have been totally stacked with back to back shoots, darkroom in transition since I bought a new home, etc.

Mr. Koch, several times in this thread you have made references to what this site is and is not and I think you are, to put it respectfully but firmly...totally out of line. This is a community comprised of all ability levels, nationalities and walks of life. Expectations of what APUG is to each person are as diverse as the people who come here. Some show up and stay, some pass through, like any virtual or in person community.

In the case of said newcomers asking repeat questions, it has never bothered me in the least because I like to see new names and share my life long passion of my chosen life / career as a photographer with others. That is why I mentor young photographers as an adjunct faculty once a week for two classes. To me, this site reflects my own life path in photography, always striving, learning and knowing there is no such thing as a dumb question and one that is asked too many times.

I hope more new people come here and ask whatever questions they feel like and are made to feel welcome. To discriminate how someone goes about finding answers about the analog craft in what is largely a digital world is in my opinion, a fools errand in keeping film use relevant if not vibrant in the coming years.

Lets not do that, ok?

 

[klownshed]

I hope more new people come here and ask whatever questions they feel like and are made to feel welcome. To discriminate how someone goes about finding answers about the analog craft in what is largely a digital world is in my opinion, a fools errand in keeping film use relevant if not vibrant in the coming years.

Quite. The whole aversion to being welcoming is hard to understand.

suxkings55 mentioned that he came here looking for camaraderie but found that sadly lacking.

I know exactly what he means.

 

[Julie McLeod]

There was a point in time a few years back that the tone was so rude on here, I told Sean that I gave a recommendation to faculty at the school I mentor young people at to stay away and look elsewhere for a collaborative atmosphere. They took it seriously and young photographers in this program went elsewhere to places like the discussion groups on Flickr for example for all things analog.

Then it improved, I returned and pointed students in this direction again. I am happy to see Peter's posting of this topic, I had not really noticed because I have been totally stacked with back to back shoots, darkroom in transition since I bought a new home, etc.

Mr. Koch, several times in this thread you have made references to what this site is and is not and I think you are, to put it respectfully but firmly...totally out of line. This is a community comprised of all ability levels, nationalities and walks of life. Expectations of what APUG is to each person are as diverse as the people who come here. Some show up and stay, some pass through, like any virtual or in person community.

In the case of said newcomers asking repeat questions, it has never bothered me in the least because I like to see new names and share my life long passion of my chosen life / career as a photographer with others. That is why I mentor young photographers as an adjunct faculty once a week for two classes. To me, this site reflects my own life path in photography, always striving, learning and knowing there is no such thing as a dumb question and one that is asked too many times.

I hope more new people come here and ask whatever questions they feel like and are made to feel welcome. To discriminate how someone goes about finding answers about the analog craft in what is largely a digital world is in my opinion, a fools errand in keeping film use relevant if not vibrant in the coming years.

Lets not do that, ok?

I am encouraged hearing your response. Members like you are what keeps newcomers like myself coming back and happily this thread shows there are quite a few of you. I thank all of you!

 

[Agulliver]

I have several hobbies and for most of them I frequent boards such as this one. And in all cases there are newbies asking "silly questions".

I would counter that the only silly question is the one you do not ask.

Sure, sometimes the same question is frequently asked especially by newcomers. In that case a FAQ can be assembled, or stickies created. There is never any need to be rude. If a poster feels that a question has been adequately discussed elsewhere, then s/he can link to the previous discussion.

Often young'uns and even older newbies don't know the technical terms to perform a useful Google search.

Yes, I really do find it hard to believe that grown adults cannot operate a "real camera" when I learned to do so at the age of four or five...but the fact is many people reach adulthood and even middle age without ever having handled a manual camera, or an SLR...some now without ever having handled anything other than a phone with a set of electronic "filters" that give the subjects bunny ears and noses. Now when those people show an interest in film photography.....why shoo them away with rude or "holier than thou" attitudes?

 

[Jason K]

Being a newbie to film and developing, I would hope that I can ask questions without being talked down to. Last night I developed my 3rd roll ever, it's hanging up to dry and once I get them scanned I may have some questions. I prefer to learn by asking questions, as for me saying "go read this book" isn't particularly helpful. For one, I wouldn't know even where to start, or what terms I should be looking for. For 2, I'd have to actually find a copy of that book and once I do find it some days or weeks later, it may not even address the question I have. And finally, there is too much information in there. I know that seems like an oxymoron, but really learning is best done in bite sized chunks.

I frequent another forum, where I do actually know what I'm talking about and frequently give advice to people who are starting out or struggling with something. My general rule is (with one exception) not to point them to a book, but to give 2 or 3, at most, simple things they can work on. Once they have those figured out, time to move onto the next thing. But digestibility is the key.

The one exception I make for a book recommendation is one that is very focused on a few specific things, with lots of illustrations to demonstrate the concepts being discussed.

 

[ITD]

I get frustrated at times with the advice to use search, since that so often fails for me. An example, the thread at (there was a url link here which no longer exists) has the words 'Metering for slide film' at the start of its title. A subject I wanted to investigate this morning. But if I search for that exact string of words in titles only, I get no results.

 

[dwross]

Search engines are getting better and better all the time, and I welcome any upgrades to APUG's system, but at this time, trying to learn about a topic through a search is a horridly flawed and frustrating way to go. As an experiment, I just tried "dry plate" and got four hits. I'm pretty sure that dry plates have been talked about more often than that here. But, that's almost beside the point. What the blankety-blanck is the reason for a discussion forum if not to discuss? I can't imagine any "old timer," who cares enough to spend time here, being frustrated by newbie questions (and all newbie questions are repeat questions -- three cheers for revyving old threads!).

Everyone should understand the concept that it's hard to search for what you don't know you're searching for. I'm in a good position to understand that one. I try to promote an area of photography most people don't even know exists. How could I expect an interested party to ask "intelligent" questions, with the right vocabulary words? Gawd knows, I'd give my left pinky for anyone to be interested enough to ask. APUG should be exactly the right place for someone interested in making emulsions. There are a LOT of interested people and almost none of them come here. If APUG were the kind of place that actively tried to recruit new photographers, and pursue new ideas in photography, we might not have such a revolving door of members, and perhaps even more subscribers, new and renewed. d

 

[Bob Carnie]

I remember I got a full on ripping from Jorge and one other over silver recovery the first few times I posted.... I basically told them to where to stick their comments, It was really off putting for me as even though I knew more about photography than them both together (IMO) , the rudeness was an eyeopener and though I have thick skin there is no place for this in APUG me thinks.

 

[MattKing]

I remember I got a full on ripping from Jorge and one other over silver recovery the first few times I posted.... I basically told them to where to stick their comments, It was really off putting for me as even though I knew more about photography than them both together (IMO) , the rudeness was an eyeopener and though I have thick skin there is no place for this in APUG me thinks.

Bob:
Jorge was the poster child for rudeness. And as a result he is long gone.
I'll repeat something I said earlier. It is helpful to suggest a search if one has actually done a search and seen that there are useful results. And of course, there are both polite and impolite ways of making the suggestion.

 

[Photo Engineer]

APUG is like a family reunion of people who are strangers. As we associate with each other, we learn the "foibles" of each other and become more and more comfortable with each other. Each new person goes through this same process.

I remember how hard some things were for me here when I first joined. Many "experts" were here that took issue with some of my answers, and I considered quitting APUG.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

APUG is like a family reunion of people who are strangers. As we associate with each other, we learn the "foibles" of each other and become more and more comfortable with each other. Each new person goes through this same process.

I remember how hard some things were for me here when I first joined. Many "experts" were here that took issue with some of my answers, and I considered quitting APUG.

PE

I had to teach you about proper solarizations...

 

[Bob Carnie]

Bob:
Jorge was the poster child for rudeness. And as a result he is long gone.
I'll repeat something I said earlier. It is helpful to suggest a search if one has actually done a search and seen that there are useful results. And of course, there are both polite and impolite ways of making the suggestion.

Hi Matt

Jorge left on his own devices, I wonder if he stayed we would have suffered all these years and have been able to soften his words.

 

[MattKing]

I'm sort of sorry that guy was already gone by the time I joined.

Jorge was ... interesting.
He left not too long after I joined.
And well he may have left on his own devices, I've no doubt that that was at least partially due to his interactions with others (including the moderators).
There have been some supremely rude people here over the years. A few have been banned, most have left on their own, none have been appreciated (at least for their rudeness).

 

[Toffle]

I found it a little difficult at the beginning of my membership also, and almost quit. In fact if I remember correctly I wrote to you about it at the time.

I think most of us at some time or other have considered just packing it in and leaving the noise behind, (for me, as recent as last week) but after all these years, I am still making new connections and learning from folks here, old and new.

 

[pdeeh]

There have been some supremely rude people here over the years.

Still are

 

[Ian Grant]

Jorge was ... interesting.
He left not too long after I joined.
And well he may have left on his own devices, I've no doubt that that was at least partially due to his interactions with others (including the moderators).
There have been some supremely rude people here over the years. A few have been banned, most have left on their own, none have been appreciated (at least for their rudeness).

Jorge raised cash for cancer treatment by ore-selling Platinum prints which he was going to print after his treatment ended. I don't think he realised just how debilitating and long it would be before he'd be in a position to honour his commitments and ironically the people who supported him actually made this a huge burden at a time he didn't need it.

I'd not long lost my youngest sister to cancer and member making a donation to help him (my wife did as well) and specifically saying it was a gift, I didn't want him making a print while recovering. I think he was banned by then but Sean let him make his request. I am in touch with him every now and again, he gave up LF/ULF and Platinum printing.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Just a little asi

I'm sort of sorry that guy was already gone by the time I joined.

You would have eaten him alive Michael

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I don't know if anyone has noticed over the last few years, but the internet has swollen with detritus. I don't blame newbies for coming here and asking simple questions. I recently looked for a developing time on a film I rarely use and ended up on Flickr. The amount of misinformation in the thread was mind-boggling. Literally everything was wrong, and the results of the people following the advice later in the thread were horrible. They thought they were at fault when it was just the bad advice. Another factor is for some reason APUG doesn't come up very high on searches it seems, so people end up in other places, like blogs, or Flickr. And as of late, Photonet is pretty much useless since their redo. Most of the time when I follow a link from a search engine to an old thread there it is gone. Most of the videos on YouTube are done by people who just got started so they are confusing. Is it any wonder why newbies come here asking for help? I don't think so. It is getting difficult to find a simple answer with all the noise out there.

By the way, if YOU respond rudely to a person asking a simple question, it says more about YOU than the poor unfortunate soul looking for help. Other people here notice it. Remember that.

 

[Toffle]

By the way, if YOU respond rudely to a person asking a simple question, it says more about YOU than the poor unfortunate soul looking for help. Other people here notice it. Remember that.

This sounds a lot like another lesson from my dear, departed mother, "The way you treat people is not because of the kind of person they are, but the kind of person you are." Sadly, I have not lived this lesson nearly as well as she did. (She did set the bar awfully high.)

Cheers, mom!
Tom

 

[winger]

I don't know if anyone has noticed over the last few years, but the internet has swollen with detritus. I don't blame newbies for coming here and asking simple questions. I recently looked for a developing time on a film I rarely use and ended up on Flickr. The amount of misinformation in the thread was mind-boggling. Literally everything was wrong, and the results of the people following the advice later in the thread were horrible. They thought they were at fault when it was just the bad advice. Another factor is for some reason APUG doesn't come up very high on searches it seems, so people end up in other places, like blogs, or Flickr. And as of late, Photonet is pretty much useless since their redo. Most of the time when I follow a link from a search engine to an old thread there it is gone. Most of the videos on YouTube are done by people who just got started so they are confusing. Is it any wonder why newbies come here asking for help? I don't think so. It is getting difficult to find a simple answer with all the noise out there.

By the way, if YOU respond rudely to a person asking a simple question, it says more about YOU than the poor unfortunate soul looking for help. Other people here notice it. Remember that.

This is all very true. If someone searches on google, it seems to me that the results are getting less accurate/useful than they used to be as well. I try to put some decent info in the posts on photo.net asking why something went wrong, but it really feels like I get ignored and covered up by wrong answers (yes, I do know a few things - usually because I got them wrong once and know what that looks like).

Also, when answering a newbie's question, it forces you to think about explaining it in the simplest terms for someone who doesn't have decades of practice. Some things are just not that easy to explain (even if they're easy to do). Not everyone can do that well without just confusing the poor newbie even more. I used to point people (on mom forums and such) to the Pioneer Woman's website for basics on what aperture and shutter speed meant because she explained it really well. I've seen some photographer's explanations that confused me.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Unfortunately the people on APUG who should reading this thread are blowing this thread off and not looking into the thread.

 

[removed account4]

part of the problem with any website, apug, pnet, flicker ... whatever
is that the threads are not curated with all disinformation removed
people get offended for being singled out or having their posts removed / edited
so it is nearly impossible to know what posts are from "sputnik news"
and which are not. if you post " this isn't quite right" in-thread or send a
polite PM saying " dude/dudette, your post is confusing and kind of wrong
polaroid film isn't made anymore" or " dektol isn't d76 at a different dilution"
people get offended and someone might post that cartoon of the guy late at night
with his S/O or someone saying " hey come to bed" with him responding: "i can't this is important, something is wrong on the internet"
... and "high post counts" mean nothing because you could have been
here since 2002 and made 20,000 posts or from last may or have 20,000 posts with 19,000 of them
1-liners in the existential "deleted thread"...

its just the nature of the inter web to get a mix of good and bad. i would ENCOURAGE new people to ask questions
as many questions as they can thnk of, and i would hope if they read something fishy someplace else
they might say " i read in this thread ( post link ) that you can substitute baking soda for fixer, is this true ?
the whole " look it up, read the manual " &c mantra is bogus.
answers like that kind of hit home the idea that there are no dumb questions just dumb answers ...