whats a real photographer anyways ?

Michael Firstlight · Dec 23, 2017

This was a REAL exchange I had a few years ago (I am not kidding you, and unfortunately, isn’t uncommon in various forms).

I’m shooting a wedding as the hired photographer – about 120 guests. It is not uncommon for me and my assistant to have to do a lot of the coordinating of things when the couple doesn’t have a wedding planner/coordinator. As I’m arranging and shooting the bridal party, cousin Ralphy comes up behind me. He starts chimping away with his camera. I patiently ask cousin Ralphy to please wait until I am finished taking the shots that I am carefully arranging, but he hovers and keeps chimping away – very distracting. Now I don’t have a policy as some do about demanding that other guests not reuse my poses, but I have colleagues that are downright militant about that; guests are free to shoot away with their expensive toys – as long as they don’t interfere with my work.

Inevitably though, cousin Ralphy has to prove his worth as a ‘real’ photographer. I am not kidding you- I once had an exchange that essentially went like this:

Cousin Ralphy: “What lens are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to arrange people and shoot. He starts pestering me
Cousin Ralphy: “What ISO are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to re-arrange the group

This guy is literally starts running circles around me – I mean, he goes to my left, fires off a continuous series of frames, runs to my right, fires off a continuous series, goes low, goes high, chimping away. Thank goodness I use RF for my strobes or he'd be setting them off continuously. When I finished my group shots I get this:

Cousin Ralphy: “You know, I am a real photographer?” as he sports a $6000 camera body with a $2000 lens and a hot-shoe mounted strobe - pointed directly at his subjects no less
Me: Really? A real photographer 'eh?
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh yes”
Me: [Holding back from breaking out in laughter] "So, what's the name of your studio and where is it located?”
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh, I only do location shoots”
Me: “Are you a member of PPNC?”
Cousin Ralphy: “No, but I plan to be – what is PPNC? [PPNC is my State's professional association to which most of the pros in the State belong]
Me: “How many weddings do you do a year?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I’ve only done my aunt Alice’s daughter’s wedding so far”
Me: “Was it a church wedding and reception?” I quizzed him
Cousin Ralphy: “It was a backyard event”
Me: “So tell me, what do you think if the inverse square law”?
Cousin Ralphy: “I forget what that is, I used to know it once”
Me: “Un huh”
Cousin Ralphy: “But I don’t charge for my work yet; I’m just building my portfolio”
Me: “Yah, I remember what that was like” I reply, trying mightily to keep a straight face, “Hey, how do you handle diffraction and the circle of confusion?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I don’t put my groups in circles – I stagger them”
Me: “Un huh, right"

I’ve encountered more Cousin Ralphy’s in my past than I can count. There's almost always one of them and I've learned how to deal with it, but there are you ‘real’ photographers. A self-respecting photographer, pro, pro-am, or enthusiast would never use the term.

Don't be a cousin Ralphy.

MFL

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

Michael Firstlight said:
This was a REAL exchange I had a few years ago (I am not kidding you, and unfortunately, isn’t uncommon in various forms).

I’m shooting a wedding as the hired photographer – about 120 guests. It is not uncommon for me and my assistant to have to do a lot of the coordinating of things when the couple doesn’t have a wedding planner/coordinator. As I’m arranging and shooting the bridal party, cousin Ralphy comes up behind me. He starts chimping away with his camera. I patiently ask cousin Ralphy to please wait until I am finished taking the shots that I am carefully arranging, but he hovers and keeps chimping away – very distracting. Now I don’t have a policy as some do about demanding that other guests not reuse my poses, but I have colleagues that are downright militant about that; guests are free to shoot away with their expensive toys – as long as they don’t interfere with my work.

Inevitably though, cousin Ralphy has to prove his worth as a ‘real’ photographer. I am not kidding you- I once had an exchange that essentially went like this:

Cousin Ralphy: “What lens are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to arrange people and shoot. He starts pestering me
Cousin Ralphy: “What ISO are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to re-arrange the group

This guy is literally starts running circles around me – I mean, he goes to my left, fires off a continuous series of frames, runs to my right, fires off a continuous series, goes low, goes high, chimping away. Thank goodness I use RF for my strobes or he'd be setting them off continuously. When I finished my group shots I get this:

Cousin Ralphy: “You know, I am a real photographer?” as he sports a $6000 camera body with a $2000 lens and a hot-shoe mounted strobe - pointed directly at his subjects no less
Me: Really? A real photographer 'eh?
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh yes”
Me: [Holding back from breaking out in laughter] "So, what's the name of your studio and where is it located?”
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh, I only do location shoots”
Me: “Are you a member of PPNC?”
Cousin Ralphy: “No, but I plan to be – what is PPNC? [PPNC is my State's professional association to which most of the pros in the State belong]
Me: “How many weddings do you do a year?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I’ve only done my aunt Alice’s daughter’s wedding so far”
Me: “Was it a church wedding and reception?” I quizzed him
Cousin Ralphy: “It was a backyard event”
Me: “So tell me, what do you think if the inverse square law”?
Cousin Ralphy: “I forget what that is, I used to know it once”
Me: “Un huh”
Cousin Ralphy: “But I don’t charge for my work yet; I’m just building my portfolio”
Me: “Yah, I remember what that was like” I reply, trying migily to keep a straight face, “Hey, how do you handle refraction and the circle of confusion?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I don’t put my groups in circles – I stagger them”
Me: “Un huh, right"

I’ve encountered more Cousin Ralphy’s in my past than I can count. There's almost always one of them and I've learned how to deal with it, but there are you ‘real’ photographers. A self-respecting photographer, pro, pro-am, or enthusiast would never use the term.

MFL

I've had somewhat similar exchanges, but I don't think of myself as a "photographer" so it's OK.

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2017

Craig75 said:
So you already knew your answer to your own question and knew how the debate on that question would play out but thought you'd see the argument ... tsk tsk.

Silly and destructive.

not really silly or destructive
everyone has their own definition of what a realphotographer is and isn't
it is interesting to see what other people believe. not sure why that is silly or destructive at all.
maybe a conversation with others will open closed minds ?
i mean it is absurd some of the things i have been told over the years
people believe what they want and it is interesting to say the least reading what others have to say about
a variety of subjects.
this thread is no different than "what is art" threads that are started and run for 20 pages

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

Well first we have to agree on what "real" means. Then we have to agree on what "photographer" and "photography" means. Then we have to agree on what the term ("real photographer") itself means. Lots of luck.

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2017

Michael Firstlight said:
This was a REAL exchange I had a few years ago (I am not kidding you, and unfortunately, isn’t uncommon in various forms).

I’m shooting a wedding as the hired photographer – about 120 guests. It is not uncommon for me and my assistant to have to do a lot of the coordinating of things when the couple doesn’t have a wedding planner/coordinator. As I’m arranging and shooting the bridal party, cousin Ralphy comes up behind me. He starts chimping away with his camera. I patiently ask cousin Ralphy to please wait until I am finished taking the shots that I am carefully arranging, but he hovers and keeps chimping away – very distracting. Now I don’t have a policy as some do about demanding that other guests not reuse my poses, but I have colleagues that are downright militant about that; guests are free to shoot away with their expensive toys – as long as they don’t interfere with my work.

Inevitably though, cousin Ralphy has to prove his worth as a ‘real’ photographer. I am not kidding you- I once had an exchange that essentially went like this:

Cousin Ralphy: “What lens are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to arrange people and shoot. He starts pestering me
Cousin Ralphy: “What ISO are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to re-arrange the group

This guy is literally starts running circles around me – I mean, he goes to my left, fires off a continuous series of frames, runs to my right, fires off a continuous series, goes low, goes high, chimping away. Thank goodness I use RF for my strobes or he'd be setting them off continuously. When I finished my group shots I get this:

Cousin Ralphy: “You know, I am a real photographer?” as he sports a $6000 camera body with a $2000 lens and a hot-shoe mounted strobe - pointed directly at his subjects no less
Me: Really? A real photographer 'eh?
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh yes”
Me: [Holding back from breaking out in laughter] "So, what's the name of your studio and where is it located?”
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh, I only do location shoots”
Me: “Are you a member of PPNC?”
Cousin Ralphy: “No, but I plan to be – what is PPNC? [PPNC is my State's professional association to which most of the pros in the State belong]
Me: “How many weddings do you do a year?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I’ve only done my aunt Alice’s daughter’s wedding so far”
Me: “Was it a church wedding and reception?” I quizzed him
Cousin Ralphy: “It was a backyard event”
Me: “So tell me, what do you think if the inverse square law”?
Cousin Ralphy: “I forget what that is, I used to know it once”
Me: “Un huh”
Cousin Ralphy: “But I don’t charge for my work yet; I’m just building my portfolio”
Me: “Yah, I remember what that was like” I reply, trying migily to keep a straight face, “Hey, how do you handle refraction and the circle of confusion?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I don’t put my groups in circles – I stagger them”
Me: “Un huh, right"

I’ve encountered more Cousin Ralphy’s in my past than I can count. There's almost always one of them and I've learned how to deal with it, but there are you ‘real’ photographers. A self-respecting photographer, pro, pro-am, or enthusiast would never use the term.

MFL

so you have to know the circle of confusion and inverse square law and be a member of your state's professional photographer organization to be a real photographer ?
thanks for the information !

eddie · Dec 23, 2017

Craig75 said:
So you already knew your answer to your own question and knew how the debate on that question would play out but thought you'd see the argument ... tsk tsk.

Silly and destructive.

I don't know, Craig... I think it points out some of the judgemental beliefs some people have, here and elsewhere. When it comes to defining photographs, photographers, artists... we can be a bit close-minded. Film vs. digital vs. hybrid... toy camera vs. state of the art camera... traditional work vs. experimental work... pro vs. amateur... Some seem keen to exclude certain forms of photography simply because those forms aren't their chosen forms. What I find destructive (and I'd guess John does, too) is trying to so tightly define photography that it limits its possibilities.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

How about this:
Real = competent.
Not real = incompetent.

faberryman · Dec 23, 2017

Michael Firstlight said:
Cousin Ralphy: “You know, I am a real photographer?” as he sports a $6000 camera body with a $2000 lens and a hot-shoe mounted strobe - pointed directly at his subjects no less
Me: Really? A real photographer 'eh?
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh yes”
Me: [Holding back from breaking out in laughter] "So, what's the name of your studio and where is it located?”
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh, I only do location shoots”
Me: “Are you a member of PPNC?”
Cousin Ralphy: “No, but I plan to be – what is PPNC? [PPNC is my State's professional association to which most of the pros in the State belong]
Me: “How many weddings do you do a year?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I’ve only done my aunt Alice’s daughter’s wedding so far”
Me: “Was it a church wedding and reception?” I quizzed him
Cousin Ralphy: “It was a backyard event”
Me: “So tell me, what do you think if the inverse square law”?
Cousin Ralphy: “I forget what that is, I used to know it once”
Me: “Un huh”
Cousin Ralphy: “But I don’t charge for my work yet; I’m just building my portfolio”
Me: “Yah, I remember what that was like” I reply, trying migily to keep a straight face, “Hey, how do you handle refraction and the circle of confusion?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I don’t put my groups in circles – I stagger them”
Me: “Un huh, right"

I’ve encountered more Cousin Ralphy’s in my past than I can count. There's almost always one of them and I've learned how to deal with it, but there are you ‘real’ photographers. A self-respecting photographer, pro, pro-am, or enthusiast would never use the term.

MFL

Sounds like you both lived up to the stereotypes. Did you see the images in his portfolio or are you just judging his work by his demeanor?

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

jnanian said:
so you have to know the circle of confusion and inverse square law and be a member of your state's professional photographer organization to be a real photographer ?
thanks for the information !

Well, CoC effects printing and depth of focus, inverse square law effects quite a few things including printing, macro, and using a flash, so if the association wants competent photographers it could be considered a good start.

eddie · Dec 23, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Well, CoC effects printing and depth of focus, inverse square law effects quite a few things including printing, macro, and using a flash, so if the association wants competent photographers it could be considered a good start.

I don't think these "professional" associations have any sort of test for membership. They're usually just "pay your dues and your in" sort of things.

faberryman · Dec 23, 2017

You can become a Professional Photographers of America (PPA) Certified Professional Photographer (CPP) if you pay your dues and can pass a 25 question multiple guess exam like this. I think you even get a certificate suitable for framing. Obviously, only the most qualified real photographers will ever reach this pinnacle of achievement. That should put to rest the image of professional associations simply being about collecting dues.

Craig75 · Dec 23, 2017

jnanian said:
not really silly or destructive
everyone has their own definition of what a realphotographer is and isn't
it is interesting to see what other people believe. not sure why that is silly or destructive at all.
maybe a conversation with others will open closed minds ?
i mean it is absurd some of the things i have been told over the years
people believe what they want and it is interesting to say the least reading what others have to say about
a variety of subjects.
this thread is no different than "what is art" threads that are started and run for 20 pages

It takes a closed mind to judge another human's art like that. Dont be that person.

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Well, CoC effects printing and depth of focus, inverse square law effects quite a few things including printing, macro, and using a flash, so if the association wants competent photographers it could be considered a good start.

i know what both of those things are, and have never had to use them as part of my credentials in the 31 years i have been shooting professionally.
i am not a member of any professional organization .. and i guess according to some folks im not a real photographer.
too funny !

Craig75 said:
It takes a closed mind to judge another human's art like that. Dont be that person.

i've judged someone's art ?
i have no idea what you are talking about.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

faberryman said:
You can become a Professional Photographers of America (PPA) Certified Professional Photographer if you pay your dues and can pass a 25 question multiple guess exam like this. I think you even get a certificate suitable for framing. Obviously, only the most qualified real photographers will ever reach this pinnacle of achievement.

Ah. That explains a lot!

E. von Hoegh · Dec 23, 2017

jnanian said:
i know what both of those things are, and have never had to use them as part of my credentials in the 31 years i have been shooting professionally.
i am not a member of any professional organization .. and i guess according to some folks im not a real photographer.
too funny !

They're not credentials they're knowledge and skills. Aka competency.
Kindly do not deliberately misinterpret my post.

Craig75 · Dec 23, 2017

.

jnanian said:
i know what both of those things are, and have never had to use them as part of my credentials in the 31 years i have been shooting professionally.
i am not a member of any professional organization .. and i guess according to some folks im not a real photographer.
too funny !

i've judged someone's art ?
i have no idea what you are talking about.

minds make art......

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
They're not credentials they're knowledge and skills. Aka competency.
Kindly do not deliberately misinterpret my post.

they were used as credentials by the person (MFL) who posted the information about quizing the person at the wedding.
i didn't misinterpret your post, but wondered why in order to claim you are a real photographer you need to have
membership in some sort of professional organization and know things that don't really matter.
as i said i am not a member of any professional organization and have never had to know about
the inverse square law or circle of confusion as part of my credentials when getting work. i think
my clients care less about cirlcle of confusion and inverse square laws than i do.

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2017

Craig75 said:
.

minds make art......

so by having a conversation with someone who maybe has a closed mind or a narrow point of view about
a subject is judging their art ? it has nothing to do with their art [extraneous blabbing] .. unless their exposition was part of a spoken word or poetry slam

Sirius Glass · Dec 23, 2017

Michael Firstlight said:
... but in my view it would be an insult and a slight to real working pros to make any public claim to others you are a 'real photographer' in my opinion that, in that context, the term 'real' implies and equates as being a full-time working pro to many.

What a bunch of bunk. There are many real photographers who are not pros. You are entitled to your opinion which is just plain wrong. I never ever ever claimed that you know what you are talking about. Jes' sayin'

Sirius Glass · Dec 23, 2017

Michael Firstlight said:
This was a REAL exchange I had a few years ago (I am not kidding you, and unfortunately, isn’t uncommon in various forms).

I’m shooting a wedding as the hired photographer – about 120 guests. It is not uncommon for me and my assistant to have to do a lot of the coordinating of things when the couple doesn’t have a wedding planner/coordinator. As I’m arranging and shooting the bridal party, cousin Ralphy comes up behind me. He starts chimping away with his camera. I patiently ask cousin Ralphy to please wait until I am finished taking the shots that I am carefully arranging, but he hovers and keeps chimping away – very distracting. Now I don’t have a policy as some do about demanding that other guests not reuse my poses, but I have colleagues that are downright militant about that; guests are free to shoot away with their expensive toys – as long as they don’t interfere with my work.

Inevitably though, cousin Ralphy has to prove his worth as a ‘real’ photographer. I am not kidding you- I once had an exchange that essentially went like this:

Cousin Ralphy: “What lens are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to arrange people and shoot. He starts pestering me
Cousin Ralphy: “What ISO are you using?”
Me: I ignore him – I am trying to re-arrange the group

This guy is literally starts running circles around me – I mean, he goes to my left, fires off a continuous series of frames, runs to my right, fires off a continuous series, goes low, goes high, chimping away. Thank goodness I use RF for my strobes or he'd be setting them off continuously. When I finished my group shots I get this:

Cousin Ralphy: “You know, I am a real photographer?” as he sports a $6000 camera body with a $2000 lens and a hot-shoe mounted strobe - pointed directly at his subjects no less
Me: Really? A real photographer 'eh?
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh yes”
Me: [Holding back from breaking out in laughter] "So, what's the name of your studio and where is it located?”
Cousin Ralphy: “Oh, I only do location shoots”
Me: “Are you a member of PPNC?”
Cousin Ralphy: “No, but I plan to be – what is PPNC? [PPNC is my State's professional association to which most of the pros in the State belong]
Me: “How many weddings do you do a year?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I’ve only done my aunt Alice’s daughter’s wedding so far”
Me: “Was it a church wedding and reception?” I quizzed him
Cousin Ralphy: “It was a backyard event”
Me: “So tell me, what do you think if the inverse square law”?
Cousin Ralphy: “I forget what that is, I used to know it once”
Me: “Un huh”
Cousin Ralphy: “But I don’t charge for my work yet; I’m just building my portfolio”
Me: “Yah, I remember what that was like” I reply, trying mightily to keep a straight face, “Hey, how do you handle diffraction and the circle of confusion?”
Cousin Ralphy: “I don’t put my groups in circles – I stagger them”
Me: “Un huh, right"

I’ve encountered more Cousin Ralphy’s in my past than I can count. There's almost always one of them and I've learned how to deal with it, but there are you ‘real’ photographers. A self-respecting photographer, pro, pro-am, or enthusiast would never use the term.

Don't be a cousin Ralphy.

MFL

I can attend a wedding and enjoy it or I can photograph a wedding. I choose the former if I am going to attend.

Sirius Glass · Dec 23, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
"All generalisations are false, including this one".
IIRC Mark Twain.

Mark Twain: There are two types of people. The first type divides people into two groups. The second group does not.

Craig75 · Dec 23, 2017

jnanian said:
so by having a conversation with someone who maybe has a closed mind or a narrow point of view about
a subject is judging their art ? it has nothing to do with their art but their narrow perspective that
if i don't know what the circle of confusion is i can't be a real photographer, or if i am not a full time working professional
i can't not be a real photographer, or if i use a plastic camera i am ignorant or if i ...
it has nothing to do with judging their art .. unless their exposition was part of a spoken word or poetry slam

Good look with that open minded / closed minded thing. If you cant see the irony then....

Sirius Glass · Dec 23, 2017

MattKing · Dec 23, 2017

It can be difficult when, in order to acquire your avocation, you have spent years, much money, sweat and toil to achieve a level of expertise and standing worthy of respect, but the only label available to you is one that people also use to describe their niece who takes nice pictures of the brunch she is about to eat.
Labels and definitions are funny things. People argue about them, but they only have value if they are helpful.
The label "photographer" doesn't have much value any more, because it isn't really very helpful. It is used to describe too many things.
Adding the word "real" in front of it as an intended modifier doesn't make much of a difference.
I have no reason to doubt that Michael Firstlight does work that is worthy of a label that differentiates it from those pictures of brunch. I'm afraid however, that "photographer" or "real photographer" or even "professional photographer" all have been applied to too many types of people to tell us much.
FWIW, I wouldn't exclude the "cousin Ralphys" of the world from the label photographer. You just need to be willing to add "selfish fool of a" in front of the term.

Pioneer · Dec 23, 2017

In this interweb age we now live in anyone can become an ex spurt at just about anything they like.

And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

whats a real photographer anyways ?

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