whats a real photographer anyways ?

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by jnanian, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. eddie

    eddie Subscriber

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    In the years I've been here, I can't think of anyone who is less interested in defining what constitutes a photograph, or a "real" photographer than John. His work is always evolving, often in ways which many would argue make them something other than "real" photographs. His posts frequently involve embracing the options film photography offers, rather than limiting what it can (or should) be. His response to a post defining "real" photographers in a way which would apply to only a handful of members was spot on. Some of the best photographers I know, here and elsewhere, wouldn't be considered "real" photographers under the confined definition under discussion. However, their passion, commitment to excellence, and vision are better than many "pros". They're fully deserving of being called "real photographers", if they so choose.
     
  2. +1
     
  3. :smile:
     
  4. Helios 1984

    Helios 1984 Member

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    I hereby declare a truce for the next 24 hours, you'll be free to resume hostilities on December 26.

    Until then, have a merry Christmas folks :smile:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  5. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    November 26?
     
  6. Helios 1984

    Helios 1984 Member

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    One egg nogg to many, I'm afraid. :laugh:
     
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    jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    sure, i have a preconceived notion of what a real photographer might be and even a real photograph might be
    there is no such thing,its like perfection, it doesn't exist, exactly as i described it in post #21, did you read it ?
    its all an illusion people buy into. like gear fetishes and silver bullets ...

    where's marcel and emmanuel when you need them !
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  8. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

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    Artistic competence? I wouldn't know where to begin, I am no artist.
    As for the craft of photography, it's pretty simple; knowledge of composition, lighting, chemical processes (I'm restricting myself to analog/wet darkroom here), techniques of using film and printing materials to best advantage, ditto equipment - darkroom, cameras/bodies/lenses/accessories. That's a very brief list of what I think basic competence means. I suppose the distinguishing standard against which competence is assessed would be "incompetence", or "presence of Dunning - Kruger effect".
    As for an authoritative body, it used to be either a school or college degree, today it seems sometimes to be self-regard - but AFAIK there are still colleges teaching photography and it's various sub-specialties and issuing degrees. Personally I form my assessment of competence based upon results.
     
  9. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    ... and that takes us right back to post 1. Classic.
     
  10. Simply a real photographer is one who knows how to compose good photographs with the equipment of his or her choice and budget.
     
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    jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    indeed !
    ==
    its a word with no meaning at all and a lot of baggage.
     
  12. Michael Firstlight

    Michael Firstlight Subscriber

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    Yep, It's a useless circular debate, and is really a matter of semantics. Without context and a set of agreed upon characteristics, there can be no singular answer. There isn’t a common set of attributes on which most would agree. I submit that these types of question are more often (but not always) bait than they are legitimate questions. Remove 'photographer' from the equation and substitute practically any craft. I'll do it, what is a 'real' writer?

    I wrote this post, and I am a real person, therefore, I must be a real writer! That would be the only literal answer having put words down on (virtual) paper. But we all know that the intent of the question is asking for a qualitative, not a literal answer.

    If I tell you I’ve been writing a fiction novel for years, it’s a work in progress, and not yet published, am I a ‘real’ writer?

    Or,

    If I tell you I’ve written a book and self-published it, am I then a ‘real’ writer? Or, does self-publishing disqualify someone as a ‘real’ writer.

    Or,

    If I tell say I’ve written 24 books over the years, all of them having been formally published (not self published), and the books were read by thousands, am I then considered a ‘real’ writer?

    Or,

    If I tell you those 24 books written over 12 years were large technical manuals about installing, programming and customizing mainframe computers written while being a full-time paid staff writer for a large multi-national corporation (which for me, is literally the case as a former technical writer) am I not a ‘real’ writer because of the type of content? Must it be available from a brick and mortar or popular online bookstore before I can be considered a 'real' writer?

    Or,

    Did my writing need to reach a particular level of quality, win awards, or be judged and rated by some independent literary authority to be considered a ‘real’ writer?


    Maybe it would be more useful to describe the attributes/characteristics of who is NOT considered to be a real 'whatever' (fill in the blank). One of the easier answers upon which most reasonable people would agree are those who talks about doing something, but doesn’t do it. Beyond that the discussion instantly devolves when the answers are evaluative and not literal. The correct answer is in the eye of the beholder.

    MFL

    PS: My fiction novel is finally coming along now, but still not finished. I guess I’ll not ever be considered a ‘real’ writer until it’s published makes the NYT best seller list, even thought I've had all of those other books published. Sigghh...


    :tongue:
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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    jnanian

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  15. Michael Firstlight

    Michael Firstlight Subscriber

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    Just trying to keep it real!

    MFL
     
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    jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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  17. BrianVS

    BrianVS Member

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    Which mainframe did you write the manuals for...

    I have a small collection of computer manuals. I miss Heavy Metal.

    [​IMG]ibm_1 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

    [​IMG]autograph by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

    I had this one autographed some 35 years ago. She was a Real Programmer.
     
  18. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    WOW... Grace Hopper; she certainly was real!!!!!!!

    And from way-back-when she was a LT... or CAPT. WOW!!!!!!

    Amazing Grace!!!!!!!!!
     
  19. Michael Firstlight

    Michael Firstlight Subscriber

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    Very cool! I wrote for System 370 (the MVS/JES libraries - now z/OS)

    Regards,
    Mike
     
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    jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    the queen of software !
     
  21. NedL

    NedL Subscriber

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    I still run jobs every week on z/OS... good JCL and control structure is becoming a lost art.. TSO and MVS was already archaic when I first learned it 30 years ago! But enough about work! :smile:
     
  22. Theo Sulphate

    Theo Sulphate Subscriber

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    Very nice.

    I grew up with OS/360 and the IBM 360/91KK at UCLA's Campus Computing Network; also the 370/158 at the Rand Corporation in Santa Monica.

    About 43 years ago, 1974, Donald Knuth gave a lecture at UCLA and I made a number of photos - but I botched the development and so I have nothing of the event.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  23. Michael Firstlight

    Michael Firstlight Subscriber

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    I think we sent this thread off completely the rails, but that is probably the best possible outcome for which we could have hoped!

    MFL
     
  24. BrianVS

    BrianVS Member

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    The definition of a "real programmer" that I grew up with was "A Real Programmer writes self-modifying code in FORTRAN". Much easier to have agreed on definitions. I've done a lot of that, and had chipsets made to my specifications. I never programmed on a 370, used the "Texas Instruments ASC"- which was a first generation vector supercomputer based on the 370/195.

    When asked to sign my copy of the Mark I manual, Grace Hopper first asked "Where did you get this! I wrote that book" (Library Surplus from work) She then looked at the list of authors and told us that they were listed in the order that they programmed the machine. She then proceeded to tell us stories of some of them, including one that used to re-wire the computer to improve the instructions. The book needs to go to a Museum. The Smithsonian has the computer, but did not have a manual for it.

    So, by this standard- a real photographer makes their own lenses to capture their vision of reality.
     
  25. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

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    Ahem...
     

  26. And I got to suffer with some self modifying FORTRAN code when the customer needed a big software overhaul.