What was the Nikon equivalent to the Canon AE-1 in the day...?

Neer Taliyan said:

Nikon EM

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That was Nikon's equivalent to the Canon AV-1 camera (1979), which came after the AE-1(1976). Both are strict aperture-priority cameras. EM is 1979.

And i'd say that the FG was Nikon's answer to the Canon AE-1P (Program). FG has program mode and aperture-pri mode.

While the nikon FA was clearly an answer to the Canon A-1. Basically a multi-mode, high-tech, do it all camera. But the A-1 was released at 1978 while the FA was released in 1983.

But, as said before, when the Canon AE-1 was released (1976), Nikon had no answer to it. The answer, besides the more advanced electronics capability of the Canon R&D department, is that the then-current (1976) Nikon mount was the pre-AI nikon mount, with no provision for shutter-priority exposure. Moreover the following AI mount (1977) still was not really ready for shutter-priority exposure, since the operation of the aperture lever was not linear with exposure adjustment.

Still, the Canon FD lenses have a separate cam for automatic aperture setting, a cam that has a far, far greater travel than in Nikon cameras. Thus the potential for exposure accuracy on this mount is bigger than in the corresponding Nikon system. On the Nikon AI lenses, the aperture stop-down and the automatic aperture setting is accomplished by the same tiny, restricted-travel stop-down lever. That's what engineers call A KLUDGE.

And AI was introduced in 1977. While the FD mount, introduced in 1971, was already ready for (a) full aperture metering without the "Nikon twist", (b) aperture-priority exposure, (c) shutter-priority exposure, and even (d) communicating the actual focal length of the lens to the camera.

I say it many times and I repeat it again: From about 1968 onwards*, Canon the better engineering team, at least in lenses. Nikon were way too conservative (sometimes this was a good thing), and had a smaller budget.

* 1968 is the introduction date of a set of new FL lenses whose design was computer assisted, of superior performance to the previous Canon lenses, and directly aimed at outperforming Nikon's competing products. Most of those optical designs were directly carried over to the first FD lenses, including the acclaimed FD 50/1.4 (breech lock version), which is the same optical design than the FL 50/1.4 II.

By the time Nikon brought out anything like the Canon AE1 Nikon had missed the boat in that market and Canon sold millions of them.

That was Nikon's equivalent to the Canon AV-1 camera (1979), which came after the AE-1(1976). Both are strict aperture-priority cameras. EM is 1979.

And i'd say that the FG was Nikon's answer to the Canon AE-1P (Program). FG has program mode and aperture-pri mode.

While the nikon FA was clearly an answer to the Canon A-1. Basically a multi-mode, high-tech, do it all camera. But the A-1 was released at 1978 while the FA was released in 1983.

But, as said before, when the Canon AE-1 was released (1976), Nikon had no answer to it. The answer, besides the more advanced electronics capability of the Canon R&D department, is that the then-current (1976) Nikon mount was the pre-AI nikon mount, with no provision for shutter-priority exposure. Moreover the following AI mount (1977) still was not really ready for shutter-priority exposure, since the operation of the aperture lever was not linear with exposure adjustment.

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Fully agree with that.
But, it is worth to note that the market had/has others players. It is never entirely Canon vs Nikon. It is also vs Minolta vs Pentax vs Yashica vs Ricoh etc.

Flavio81: Really sounds like an excellent ad. And let me say that one of the pleasures in my life has been to buy a Nikon FG so my girlfriend can go out and take pictures with me, (while i use the Nikon F2). A really small, light camera that can stay locked in the "P" (Program) mode, so she can concentrate on picture-making.

Sounds kind of like my story. I had an F1, and my girlfriend (now wife) said she wanted to "get into" photography. I traded the F1 for an FTB QL with the 12% metering area and a brand new black AE-1. Now we could go shooting together. She decided she wasn't all that interested in photography after all, but now I had two camera bodies for photography! Lucky me.

An interesting read Flavio, still, despite the "KLUDGE", Nikon cameras have been recognized to have better light and flash meters and have pioneered in multi-segment (matrix) metering (Nikon FA).

benjiboy said:

By the time Nikon brought out anything like the Canon AE1 Nikon had missed the boat in that market and Canon sold millions of them.

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Maybe Nikon was not interested in selling "Volkswagens".

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:

Maybe Nikon was not interested in selling "Volkswagens".

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What are you saying Richard, Nikon's shareholders weren't interested in making money, and if they weren't interested in "selling Volkswagens" why did they later in response bring out the Nikon EM ?

I believe what Richard meant (and I agree) Nikon wasn't after exactly the same broad market as Canon. Nikon appears to have tailored their lineup to cameras for gearheads and professionals. Canon was interested in getting people away from the snapshot camera into SLRs that were easy to use but delivered a better image than the typically available snapshot cameras popular in the 70s/80s. At least that's what I see.

benjiboy said:

What are you saying Richard, Nikon's shareholders weren't interested in making money, and if they weren't interested in "selling Volkswagens" why did they later in response bring out the Nikon EM ?

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Probably not their business model at the time. Or that's what they told themselves. Later I guess they changed their minds? Maybe Rolex will one day sell in the Timex category...

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:

Probably not their business model at the time. Or that's what they told themselves. Later I guess they changed their minds?

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If Nikon were only interested in making superb optical machines, they need never have moved past the Nikon F. That's a trick only Leica managed to pull off, and it would have bankrupted them without new owners and boutique/cheesy spin offs to keep the bespoke side of the business afloat (at a price!).

The reality is photographic manufacturers made more money selling cameras to amateurs than they ever did to professionals, and Canon caught on to the fact quicker than Nikon. By the end of the film era both companies were shifting masses of consumer bodies with a few pro cameras as the icing on the cake. Autofocus killed the SLRs raison d'etre, a bright, easy to focus optical viewfinder, and the inheritors of that reality are the EVFs of the mirrorless cameras we have today.

benjiboy said:

I remember when the Canon T90 came out Allan the design was so different from the way cameras looked in those days the shape was so organic and revolutionary it was like something from 25 years in the future which it proved almost to be https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=...g.1.0.0l2j0i30l4j0i24l4.2472.7535.0.12230.9.9.

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I remember the T90 but we didn't carry it where I worked at Venture. Venture was owned by May corporation and was similar to Target so we didn't carry the higher end models. I do remember when the T50 came out which we did sell. We all thought it looked futuristic.

blockend said:

If Nikon were only interested in making superb optical machines, they need never have moved past the Nikon F.

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I don't know. An F2 with both modern matrix and spot metering plus a built in autowinder and TTL flash would be awful sweet!

MartinCrabtree said:

I believe what Richard meant (and I agree) Nikon wasn't after exactly the same broad market as Canon. Nikon appears to have tailored their lineup to cameras for gearheads and professionals. Canon

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This not agree with the facts.

Nikon already attempted to grab the amateur market with the totally amateur (auto exposure, etc) Nikkorex camera in 1960, then the Nikkorex F SLR in 1962, then the Nikkormats (for advanced amateurs), then the Nikon EM ("take your wife, seriously" said a 1982 ad, picturing a girl using an EM) for beginners, same with the FG20 (!) and the list goes on and on and on.

And they are the masters of the point and shoot camera with their remarkable Nikon One Touch P&S.

Oh yeah, Nikon loves to market to amateurs.

Ricardo Miranda said:

Fully agree with that.
But, it is worth to note that the market had/has others players. It is never entirely Canon vs Nikon. It is also vs Minolta vs Pentax vs Yashica vs Ricoh etc.

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Yes, I think the Minolta XK is a remarkable machine but it was released too late; when the Canon F-1 and Nikon F2 were already in the market. For a while Minolta regained the lead with the Maxxum 7000 camera, but then Canon released the EF mount and the EOS system which simply overtook the AF market and grabbed it.

Minolta made many good cameras, and if i grab a XK, perhaps I could start buying some "Rokkors".

Yashica allied with Contax but the systems never sold too well. Sadly because i think the RTS and the Yashica FR are nice cameras. And the Tomioka lens factory (owned by Yashica) was good enough to be selected by Zeiss as a production plant.

Pentax, I could never like. They introduced many innovations but it seems that they lacked focus (no pun intended). That means, no clear direction on where to go or who to market their cameras to. LX was released too late, anyways. On a subjective level, they were only surpassed by Ricoh regarding their talent for designing ugly cameras. Look at a K1000, yucky yuck.

Olympus, for me, has always been a very overrated company on the forums. Many of their products are based on gimmicks rather than on useful features. Their motto seems to be "let's do things different for the sake of being different, in detriment to other things." An exception would be the Olympus Trip 35. That is really a great camera.

And I say this after owning or using many of their cameras. Perhaps my opinion will change if I use an OM-4.

In fact i think I can do a short resume/parody of the history of 35mm cameras from the 1950s onwards:


1954
Leitz: Ha! We have the Leica M3, we're the BEST in der welt! Nobody can top the German optical industry:


1957
Canon: Hmm... we should attempt to better Leitz lenses, let's start patenting new lens designs
Nikon: We should be able to create a better camera than the Leica M3, let's create the Nikon SP


1958
Leitz: Ha! Japanese kids making toy cameras! We're the BEST
Zeiss: Ha! Japanese kids making toy cameras! We're the BEST
Voigtlander: Ha! Japanese kids making toy cameras! We're the BEST
Rollei: Ha! Japanese kids making toy cameras! We're the BEST

Nikon: Asahi Pentax is launching interesting SLRs. We should bet in the SLR, that is the future... Let's design the best SLR that could be made.
Canon: RANGEFINDERS are the best. But we know that Nikon is designing a SLR, let's release a SLR just so the world knows that we can do it as well as them. But don't devote so many resources, we need to focus on our rangefinders.

1959
Nikon: We really hit the spot with the Nikon F!
Canon: People will keep buying rangefinders, SLRs are a dead end.
Leitz: People will keep buying rangefinders, SLRs are a dead end.

1962
Canon: We have just released the 50/0.95 lens. People will keep buying rangefinders, knowing that the best lenses are only achievable in rangefinders. Also, SLRs have no good wideangles.
Nikon: Let's perfect the retrofocus wideangles, let's create the most complete line of SLR lenses.
German makers: Our sales are going down... Japanese lenses are improving in optical quality, the japanese are issuing lots of patents and their camera industry is cooperating together, we are going downhill!

late 60s:
Canon: We shall beat Nikon in the SLR business. Let's devote all our resources to build a better pro SLR and to beat their Nikkor optics in all fronts.
Leitz: Release the LEICAFLEX, we need to have a SLR, we are the best in the world!
Voigtlander: We're going to hell, let's merge with Zeiss-Ikon.
Yashica: Let's research the electronics side of cameras. That is our hope to compete in this market.

1970
Canon: We are the best, we shall triumph.
Leitz: Why nobody wants our Leicaflex?
Zeiss-Ikon-Voigtlander: Let's release lots of SLR cameras, who cares if they use mutually incompatible lens mounts?
Pentax: Release a similar camera to the Spotmatic but with a new feature.

1971
Nikon: We need to do something to outperform the Canon FD lenses, which are testing better than our offerings in magazines. Also, how could they manage to put an aspheric lens on the Canon FD 55/1.2AL without it costing like a luxury yatch?
Leitz: How could they manage to put an aspheric lens on the Canon FD 55/1.2AL without it costing like a full Leica outfit?
Pentax: Release a similar camera to the Spotmatic but with a new feature. Also, now that we have our superdupermulticoating process, let's tell everybody that they NEED multicoating in all their lenses, otherwise their lenses are crap.
Minolta: We can make a better camera than the F-1 or F, so let's do it.
Pentax: Release a similar camera to the Spotmatic but with a new feature.

About 1973:
Nikon: Har har, pros still love us! We're the BEST! We don't need to innovate!!
Canon: We really need to dethrone Nikon. Let's pull out ALL stops, research like crazy and see what we can do.
Minolta: We need to do some marketing move to get noticed above Nikon/Canon. Call Leitz.
Yashica: We need to do some marketing move to get noticed above Nikon/Canon. Call Zeiss.
Leitz: We need to ally with a japanese manufacturer if we want to survive. Minolta.
Zeiss-Ikon-Voigtlander: We need to ally with a japanese manufacturer if we want to survive. Yashica.
Rollei: We need to put a factory in Singapur if we want to survive.
Pentax: Release a similar camera to the Spotmatic but with a new feature.

1974:
Nikon: Canon has caught us by suprise with the FD 35-70/2.8-3.5 zoom (first truly pro-caliber standard zoom lens and an optical milestone). We need to copy this design or invent something to match or surpass the performance of this lens.
Pentax: Release a similar camera to the Spotmatic but with a new feature.
Canon: Computers are the feature. We should research in that area and see what computers can do for our cameras.

1976:
Everyone except Canon: (after looking at the AE-1) How could they pull this off?!

1978
Everyone except Canon: (after looking at the A-1) They did it again. How could they pull this off?!

1979:
Nikon: Ok, we need to put automation and create a camera for the ladies. Also, look at Olympus; we need to shrink down our cameras and lenses.
Also, look at how Contax called the Porsche design group for our RTS. Let's call some italian car designer to mess with our new pro SLR design.

Canon: We need to release a successor to the F-1, and THIS time we should dethrone Nikon for good. Also, look at Olympus; we need to shrink down our cameras and lenses.

Pentax: Ok, about time to make a pro camera.

1981
Nikon: Look at them! They are buying our Nikon F3, even despite the manual metering display being the worst we've brought in ages!
Canon: Ok, we have the best pro SLR in the market, the best lenses, we shall dethrone Nikon this time.
Leitz: Why nobody likes our pimped-out Minoltas?

1982:
Pentax - releases AF camera
Nikon: We should go AF. Let's put the AF motor in the lens. And let's make a F3AF prototype so they know we can do it. But AF is just a gimmick, so don't worry.
Canon: We should go AF. Let's put the AF motor in the lens. Meanwhile we release an autofocus FD lens so they know we can do it. Let's research.
Minolta: We should go AF. Let's put the AF motor in the body. Let's create a fully feature AF system.

1984
Canon: Minolta is going for a full AF system! We need to do something radical. Let's design the EF lens system. Electromagnetic diaphragm. Micro-motors. Fully electronic mount.
Nikon: Minolta is going for a full AF system! But they will not release a pro AF camera, let's create a pro AF camera and some AF lenses. By the way, change of plan: better put the AF motor in the body, not the lens; it's easier that way.
Minolta: With this we shall conquer the AF world

1985
Canon: Minolta will eat our lunch!! Release the T80 to distract the manufacturers while we perfect the EF system. Let's pull out ALL stops to win over Nikon and Minolta. The key is simple -- let's aim for the highest performance and tech possible. How about researching into piezoelectric motors?
Nikon: We should work in AF technology to overcome our competition.
Minolta: Oh oh ... the giants have woken up!
Yashica: Let's create some REALLY UGLY AF cameras so we win some design award.
Leica: We should release a mechanical SLR to revindicate the virtues of mechanical cameras.

1987
(Canon EOS 650 and Canon AF system released)
Nikon: We're doomed! The system is faster than ours! But they have abandoned the FD mount. They have no loyalty, they shall fall. We predict that Canon FD-system users will set Canon dealerships on fire with molotov cocktails. Also, we're getting our F4 ready, the first PRO autofocus camera.

Canon: Prepare for world domination once our pro AF SLR and our ultrasonic 300/2.8L lens is ready.
Minolta: We're doomed again... Ok, try to put gimmicks on our AF SLRs so they sell more.

1989
Nikon: Look at the Canon EF 300/2.8L, with ultra fast focusing and perfect optical performance! Look at the Canon EF 50/1.0L! How is this possible?! Call our marketing department to see how can we mantain our customer loyalty.

late 1990s:
Canon: Look at those sports events full of our white lenses. We are the kings.
Nikon: Do whatever is needed to update our AF system. Year after year we are lagging behind Canon.
Minolta: Umm... Konica, do you want to purchase us?
Leica: Well, at least we can still sell things to rich people...


--- condensed version ----

Leitz: Ha! We're the BEST in the world! Nobody can surpass German technology!
Nikon: Let's surpass german technology, let's bet in the SLR.
Canon: Let's surpass Nikon, everything they do, we can do better.
German makers: We're going down.
Canon: Everything Nikon does, we do better, but pros have already bought a lot of Nikon gear.
German makers: We're bankrupt.
Minolta: Let's release a full AF system so we can be kings.
Nikon: Let's release a pro AF system so we don't lose market share. But AF is for kids.
Canon: AF is the future, let's invest in huge R&D to create the ultimate AF system for the years to come.
Hasselblad: Let's grab a Sony Nex camera, wrap it in wood and jewerly, and see if they buy it only because it says "hasselblad". That way, somebody could finally buy us something.

...

Ha ha - that is funny! I think you described it exactly.

That is a lot of fun Flavio.

Let's call some italian car designer to mess with our new pro SLR design.

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It was actually before 79 as the EM was released March 79 in the US. The EM was designed, even if only in part, by Giugiaro and set the trends for the F3.

Ricardo Miranda said:

That is a lot of fun Flavio.
It was actually before 79 as the EM was released March 79 in the US. The EM was designed, even if only in part, by Giugiaro and set the trends for the F3.

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Wasn't the F3 the one that was designed by Giugaro? But yes, there is a resemblance between the EM, FG, and F3. Although i find the controls on the FG better placed than the ones in the F3.

As for the "parody", mind you, i admire many SLR cameras made by Leitz (Leicaflex), Zeiss-Ikon-Voigtlander-Yashica (Contarex Super, RTS, and I really want a Yashica FR), Minolta (XK, XE-5), as well as Nikon (F, F2, F3, F4, FT2, EL2, FE2, FE, FG...)

At the end the camera is just a tool and in the 35mm SLR world there are many, many cameras that are just fine as a photographic tool, and the limitation is not really imposed by the equipment (unless you are a press, wedding or sports photographer), but by your brain.

Now, back on topic... I really would like to know what did the Nikon leaders thought when the AE-1 was released!! Perhaps we'll never know.

They were booth designed by Giugiaro.
The story goes that the EM was already on the final stages of design, when Nikon asked him to lend a hand.
That's where the flat top and strong angular shape comes, as well as the design of the winder with its slanted base, very similar to the MD-4.

flavio81 said:

In fact i think I can do a short resume/parody of the history of 35mm cameras from the 1950s onwards:

1954
Leitz: Ha! We have the Leica M3, we're the BEST in der welt! Nobody can top the German optical industry:

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From Canon -> What the "Leica M3" had Brought

Since it was difficult to imitate the "Leica M3" introduced in 1954 in terms of its bright viewfinder and accurate rangefinder, many camera manufacturer, including Canon, were forced to shift their development goals to the camera that would lead the world's market in the future. What Japanese camera manufacturer, including Canon, decided was to concentrate on the single lens reflex (SLR) camera with system capabilities, which could be developed using Japan's own technology. This SLR camera was to become the new camera, which would be accepted by the world, capable of overcoming the previous limitations of the rangefinder cameras including the use of telephoto lenses.

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Les Sarile said:

From Canon -> What the "Leica M3" had Brought

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Hi Les,

But that is a marketing website. What really happened after 1954 was that they invested R&D on a camera with a sophisticated rangefinder, following the M3 example. Thus they released several RFs ending with the Canon 7S plus lots of RF lenses, while the 1959 Canonflex was only released with two or three slr-specific lenses (!), and no wideangle lenses(!) while they had lots of wideangle lenses for their rangefinders. So they don't wanted to go full speed ahead on the SLR...

If they had really switched their focus to the SLR in 1954, they would have not released such an underfeatured SLR in 1959. Canon was first and foremost a rangefinder camera company; in fact the first of such kind in Japan. Also in 1960 or 61 they released the Canonet (a novelty) and it sold like hotcakes, to the envy of other manufacturers. I don't think they were really interested in SLRs until Nikon showed high performance retrofocus lenses.

flavio81 said:

Hi Les,

But that is a marketing website. What really happened after 1954 was that they invested R&D on a camera with a sophisticated rangefinder, following the M3 example. Thus they released several RFs ending with the Canon 7S plus lots of RF lenses, while the 1959 Canonflex was only released with two or three slr-specific lenses (!), and no wideangle lenses(!) while they had lots of wideangle lenses for their rangefinders. So they don't wanted to go full speed ahead on the SLR...

If they had really switched their focus to the SLR in 1954, they would have not released such an underfeatured SLR in 1959. Canon was first and foremost a rangefinder camera company; in fact the first of such kind in Japan. Also in 1960 or 61 they released the Canonet (a novelty) and it sold like hotcakes, to the envy of other manufacturers. I don't think they were really interested in SLRs until Nikon showed high performance retrofocus lenses.

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That's ok as you did state your list was a parody which meant it was provided for comic effect or in ridicule.

A marketing website is very biased in favor of the company but I am glad for their honesty. Truth of the matter was Canon - and practically everyone else at that time, were Leica cloners as Leica's intellectual property was not protected after WWII. So when Leica released the M3, nobody could legally just copy it and, "Canon's engineers who saw the "Leica M3" for the first time were greatly shocked by the level of perfection in the camera."

Of course Pentax's 1954 Asahiflex IIB finally addressed the SLR viewfinder blackout as we know it today and was a wide open market for new development.

flavio81 said:

If they had really switched their focus to the SLR in 1954, they would have not released such an underfeatured SLR in 1959. Canon was first and foremost a rangefinder camera company; in fact the first of such kind in Japan. Also in 1960 or 61 they released the Canonet (a novelty) and it sold like hotcakes, to the envy of other manufacturers. I don't think they were really interested in SLRs until Nikon showed high performance retrofocus lenses.

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It also didn't look like Nikon released the full extent of lenses with the rollout of the F either -> Debut of Nikon F
The F also leveraged quite a bit of their rangefinder technology to minimize their effort.

The failure of Canon's first SLR - Canonflex, was no doubt greatly magnified by the success of the Nikon F. As you pointed out, it is a good thing they were not completely dependent on the SLR's success at that time and they were able to rebound.

Hi Les, i do agree with you; Canon started by making Leica copies.

After the M3 both Canon and Nikon tried coming up with something better; we have to remember that back in those times Nikon -after some suitable good publicity by D Duncan and other renowned photographers- was seen as a worthy competitor to Leitz (how times have changed!). The Nikon SP was a deluxe machine targeted to challenge the Leica. And Canon's challenge came in the form of lenses mainly. But the Nikon F, for all its glory, was basically a Nikon SP with a mirror housing. Much has been said of it being the first "system camera", but the earlier Exakta was arguably a more versatile machine and a real system camera.

I think the success of Nikon and what turned the tables favoring the SLR was Nikon's persistence in improving Retrofocus wideangles, which were not good at the beginning of the SLR era. I think Canon, as well as the big majority of photographers, saw the SLR as a limited machine, due to the lack of good performing wideangles wider than 35mm.

Note that the Nikon F was already released with a 35mm lens in 1959 (zero for the Canonflex) and then a 28mm in 1960. Also with a zoom within those two years and in 1960 with a f1.4 lens. So by 1960 the range was: 28, 35, 50, 58, 105, 135. All with auto diaphragms. The Canonflex had only the 50/1.8 and the 100mm lenses with auto diaphragms!!

It's sad, because the Canonflex is a beautiful, really well built machine.

Later, about 1962-64, as the Nikon F really started to be widely regarded and accepted, did Canon start to release serious SLR lenses to challenge the Nikon: For example Canon 58/1.2 (faster than what Nikon had) and Canon 19/3.5R (at the time the widest retrofocus, and with very high performance and no distortion.) And as I said before, during about 1964-66 Canon started a highly ambitious optical program with use of computers which led to the lenses introduced in 1968, of more advanced design and performance than what Nikon had. Those designs were made as part of the F-1 effort, for they were directly used in the first FD lenses.

flavio81 said:

It's sad, because the Canonflex is a beautiful, really well built machine.

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I wouldn't say it's beautiful but that is up to the beholder.

I don't see it as sad as it obviously motivated Canon even more. That they new enough to pull the plug early and not let their pride get in the way must have been hard to overcome and very commendable. Cool write-up -> Cameraquest Canon's 1st SLR the 1959 Canonflex. The article may not be completely true since it states, "The F had a use in the field professional electric motor drive (a SLR first)" as the Praktina FX had a motor years before it (1954?) as shown in this 1958 Modern Photog ad.



I'm sure all these little omissions or errors just serves to make it more interesting by causing discussions . . .