What makes old Adoflo go cloudy?

[koraks]

Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

The SDS for this product lists the following components:

There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

 

[Rudeofus]

Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

View attachment 397831

The SDS for this product lists the following components:
View attachment 397832
There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

The first compound (also known under the name Triton X-100 appears to degrade into some non-polar and therefore water insoluble compounds. This article's abstract suggests a few degradation pathes.

 

[koraks]

Thanks; that's interesting. I may have to dig up the fulltext on that. The abstract is kind of brief on the actual pathways.

 

[Samu]

I don't know. but I have noticed the same with Kodak's Photo Flo, which I use for my black & white films.

 

[koraks]

Oh, I always believed Kodak Photo Flo was super stable, but I guess it's not necessarily.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

View attachment 397831

The SDS for this product lists the following components:
View attachment 397832
There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

Probably bacterial growth.

 

[koraks]

Probably bacterial growth.

Probably not; that tends to be stringy and uneven, and tends to settle on the bottom. This is perfectly dispersed, resulting in a stable, milky suspension. Moreover, Adoflo contains a pretty effective biocide as you can see in post #1 (Kathon). See @Rudeofus' post above; that one makes good sense.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Probably not; that tends to be stringy and uneven, and tends to settle on the bottom. This is perfectly dispersed, resulting in a stable, milky suspension. Moreover, Adoflo contains a pretty effective biocide as you can see in post #1 (Kathon). See @Rudeofus' post above; that one makes good sense.

You cannot tell just from a single photo. Maybe the bottle has been shaken before and the bubbles has settled. Who knows?
I've had some Adoflo go bad in the past and the bottle just looked like that.
Contrary of what's been spoken here and there, even wetting agents hves a shelf life and inf fact the op says "I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo"

 

[koraks]

Who knows?

I do. It's my bottle, after all. I know what happened to it from the moment I decanted some AdoFlo into it up to present. It's sitting right behind me in the chemistry cupboard.

I've had some Adoflo go bad in the past and the bottle just looked like that.

Sure. No doubt the bottle this came from (if I still have it somewhere) contains some that has gone bad in the same way. The question is what the pathway of degradation is - again, out of curiosity.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

I do. It's my bottle, after all. I know what happened to it from the moment I decanted some AdoFlo into it up to present. It's sitting right behind me in the chemistry cupboard.


Sure. No doubt the bottle this came from (if I still have it somewhere) contains some that has gone bad in the same way. The question is what the pathway of degradation is - again, out of curiosity.

Il looks line bacterial growth to me. You should plate it in a petri dish with some minimum agar medium. Make sure it's all sterile.

 

[koraks]

Il looks line bacterial growth to me.

I don't think so. There's also no bacterial smell. And no, I'm not going to incubate it, for lack of interest. We'll just have to disagree on what it is.

 

[BrianShaw]

Does it still work?

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

I don't think so. There's also no bacterial smell. And no, I'm not going to incubate it, for lack of interest. We'll just have to disagree on what it is.

Bacterial smell? LOL

 

[koraks]

Does it still work?

It appears so, yes, although I have the impression it's less effective than it once was.

Bacterial smell? LOL

Yes, "LOL", this is exactly the reason why we evolved a sense of smell to begin with.
Look, I'd appreciate it if you got out of this thread. Thanks.

 

[Rudeofus]

Does it still work?

I would like to know especially whether it now causes drying marks on film, which it maybe wouldn't cause if used fresh. I know, that I've been struggling with these drying marks forever, and years old rinsing agent sounds like a possible explanation.

 

[koraks]

Well, to be frank, I never had much luck relying on any drying/wetting agent to prevent these marks, fresh or not. At least on 35mm; on all other formats, it's a non-issue. On 35mm, I do notice that it helps the film dry more evenly, although in the end, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. And I wipe off the backside of the film (again, only 35mm) with a tissue anyway to prevent drying marks. I've done just about anything you might think of, including the trick with the distilled water - there's marks, always, to a varying degree. If I just wipe off the film, no marks. I presently use wetting agent (yes, this well-aged, milky much) in about 50% of the cases and frankly, I don't see any difference between the film I've used it on and where I haven't. At this point it's very much a case of "ah, it feels like an expired Adoflo kind of day!"

 

[halfaman]

I have been using this product forever. And "forever" means that a 250 ml bottle last around 10 years in my lab (a color guy here). I have bought just two bottles on my whole "analog" life, second one ongoing.

Dilution 1+1000 (!!), no film squeezing (mandatory in the instructions), apparently indefinite shelf life (stored without any care), and never a drying mark. I think it was a former Agfa product.

Rollei RWA wetting agent sc 250ml

Rollei RWA Wetting Agent is a wetting agent for films and papers. RWA Wetting Agent reduces drying time and aids uniform drying. RWA Wetting Agent…

www.macodirect.de

 

[koraks]

@halfaman thanks; I should order a bottle next time I order something from a place that carries it (and I hope I won't forget...)
The SDS shows it's really quite different from Adoflo (or Kodak Photo Flo).

I know @Cor makes his own Flo using Triton X-100, suggesting the Triton in undiluted form is quite stable (I can't imagine @Cor buying a new bottle every year).

 

[fgorga]

It addition to some degradation, this could simply be temperature...

Wetting agents (surfactants) such as Triton X-100 (and Tween-20, the other commonly used surfactant in photography) form micelles in water.

The size & structure of the micelles can change with temperature which would change their light scattering properties. Such changes might show up as cloudiness.

Try warming (or cooling, less likely but who knows! ) the solution by a small amount and see if the stock clears up. No need to go to extremes... 5-10 deg. C is plenty