What makes old Adoflo go cloudy?

koraks · Saturday at 10:50 AM

Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

The SDS for this product lists the following components:

There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

Rudeofus · Saturday at 4:45 PM

koraks said:
Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

View attachment 397831

The SDS for this product lists the following components:
View attachment 397832
There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

The first compound (also known under the name Triton X-100 appears to degrade into some non-polar and therefore water insoluble compounds. This article's abstract suggests a few degradation pathes.

koraks · Saturday at 5:09 PM

Thanks; that's interesting. I may have to dig up the fulltext on that. The abstract is kind of brief on the actual pathways.

Samu · Saturday at 9:30 PM

I don't know. but I have noticed the same with Kodak's Photo Flo, which I use for my black & white films.

koraks · 2025-05-04T03:03:13-0400

Oh, I always believed Kodak Photo Flo was super stable, but I guess it's not necessarily.

Alessandro Serrao · 2025-05-04T07:38:29-0400

koraks said:
Note that this question is really out of curiosity; I'm not trying to solve a problem.

I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo of which I decanted a bit into a pipette bottle. As you can see, it is quite cloudy, whereas fresh Adoflo is as clear as water:

View attachment 397831

The SDS for this product lists the following components:
View attachment 397832
There may be other stuff in there that doesn't require listing, like IDK, plain ethylene or propylene glycol or so?

I wonder what has decomposed or perhaps polymerized here. Again, just curious. I've seen something similar happen with dishwasher rinse agent if you use that in warm water; it tends to go milky in a very similar way.

Probably bacterial growth.

koraks · 2025-05-04T07:43:50-0400

Alessandro Serrao said:
Probably bacterial growth.

Probably not; that tends to be stringy and uneven, and tends to settle on the bottom. This is perfectly dispersed, resulting in a stable, milky suspension. Moreover, Adoflo contains a pretty effective biocide as you can see in post #1 (Kathon). See @Rudeofus' post above; that one makes good sense.

Alessandro Serrao · 2025-05-04T07:46:05-0400

koraks said:
Probably not; that tends to be stringy and uneven, and tends to settle on the bottom. This is perfectly dispersed, resulting in a stable, milky suspension. Moreover, Adoflo contains a pretty effective biocide as you can see in post #1 (Kathon). See @Rudeofus' post above; that one makes good sense.

You cannot tell just from a single photo. Maybe the bottle has been shaken before and the bubbles has settled. Who knows?
I've had some Adoflo go bad in the past and the bottle just looked like that.
Contrary of what's been spoken here and there, even wetting agents hves a shelf life and inf fact the op says "I've got this old (definitely very expired) bottle of Adoflo"

koraks · 2025-05-04T07:48:15-0400

Alessandro Serrao said:
Who knows?

I do. It's my bottle, after all. I know what happened to it from the moment I decanted some AdoFlo into it up to present. It's sitting right behind me in the chemistry cupboard.

Alessandro Serrao said:
I've had some Adoflo go bad in the past and the bottle just looked like that.

Sure. No doubt the bottle this came from (if I still have it somewhere) contains some that has gone bad in the same way. The question is what the pathway of degradation is - again, out of curiosity.

Alessandro Serrao · 2025-05-04T07:51:08-0400

koraks said:
I do. It's my bottle, after all. I know what happened to it from the moment I decanted some AdoFlo into it up to present. It's sitting right behind me in the chemistry cupboard.

Sure. No doubt the bottle this came from (if I still have it somewhere) contains some that has gone bad in the same way. The question is what the pathway of degradation is - again, out of curiosity.

Il looks line bacterial growth to me. You should plate it in a petri dish with some minimum agar medium. Make sure it's all sterile.

koraks · 2025-05-04T08:06:20-0400

Alessandro Serrao said:
Il looks line bacterial growth to me.

I don't think so. There's also no bacterial smell. And no, I'm not going to incubate it, for lack of interest. We'll just have to disagree on what it is.

BrianShaw · 2025-05-04T08:36:42-0400

Does it still work?

Alessandro Serrao · 2025-05-04T09:03:02-0400

koraks said:
I don't think so. There's also no bacterial smell. And no, I'm not going to incubate it, for lack of interest. We'll just have to disagree on what it is.

Bacterial smell? LOL

koraks · 2025-05-04T09:05:15-0400

BrianShaw said:
Does it still work?

It appears so, yes, although I have the impression it's less effective than it once was.

Alessandro Serrao said:
Bacterial smell? LOL

Yes, "LOL", this is exactly the reason why we evolved a sense of smell to begin with.
Look, I'd appreciate it if you got out of this thread. Thanks.

Rudeofus · 2025-05-04T13:59:53-0400

BrianShaw said:
Does it still work?

I would like to know especially whether it now causes drying marks on film, which it maybe wouldn't cause if used fresh. I know, that I've been struggling with these drying marks forever, and years old rinsing agent sounds like a possible explanation.

koraks · 2025-05-04T15:05:14-0400

Well, to be frank, I never had much luck relying on any drying/wetting agent to prevent these marks, fresh or not. At least on 35mm; on all other formats, it's a non-issue. On 35mm, I do notice that it helps the film dry more evenly, although in the end, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. And I wipe off the backside of the film (again, only 35mm) with a tissue anyway to prevent drying marks. I've done just about anything you might think of, including the trick with the distilled water - there's marks, always, to a varying degree. If I just wipe off the film, no marks. I presently use wetting agent (yes, this well-aged, milky much) in about 50% of the cases and frankly, I don't see any difference between the film I've used it on and where I haven't. At this point it's very much a case of "ah, it feels like an expired Adoflo kind of day!"

halfaman · 2025-05-04T15:05:55-0400

I have been using this product forever. And "forever" means that a 250 ml bottle last around 10 years in my lab (a color guy here). I have bought just two bottles on my whole "analog" life, second one ongoing.

Dilution 1+1000 (!!), no film squeezing (mandatory in the instructions), apparently indefinite shelf life (stored without any care), and never a drying mark. I think it was a former Agfa product.

Rollei RWA wetting agent sc 250ml

Rollei RWA Wetting Agent is a wetting agent for films and papers. RWA Wetting Agent reduces drying time and aids uniform drying. RWA Wetting Agent…

www.macodirect.de

koraks · 2025-05-04T15:29:10-0400

@halfaman thanks; I should order a bottle next time I order something from a place that carries it (and I hope I won't forget...)
The SDS shows it's really quite different from Adoflo (or Kodak Photo Flo).

I know @Cor makes his own Flo using Triton X-100, suggesting the Triton in undiluted form is quite stable (I can't imagine @Cor buying a new bottle every year).

fgorga · 2025-05-04T18:01:48-0400

It addition to some degradation, this could simply be temperature...

Wetting agents (surfactants) such as Triton X-100 (and Tween-20, the other commonly used surfactant in photography) form micelles in water.

The size & structure of the micelles can change with temperature which would change their light scattering properties. Such changes might show up as cloudiness.

Try warming (or cooling, less likely but who knows! ) the solution by a small amount and see if the stock clears up. No need to go to extremes... 5-10 deg. C is plenty

jonathanchli · 2025-05-05T00:40:09-0400

It is interesting that Adoflo uses CAS #68412-54-4 (IGEPAL CO630 or IGEPAL CO520) as a surfactant. Is it due to the ban/use of Triton X-100 by ECHA in 2021...?

mshchem · 2025-05-05T01:00:19-0400

I dilute my Photoflo to 25% with absolute isopropyl alcohol per @MattKing recommendation. Works so easy I have in a dropper bottle, easy-to-use and in that strong alcoholic solution no worries about bugs. If you try this make sure you use 100% isopropyl.

MattKing · 2025-05-05T01:12:26-0400

mshchem said:
I dilute my Photoflo to 25% with absolute isopropyl alcohol per @MattKing recommendation. Works so easy I have in a dropper bottle, easy-to-use and in that strong alcoholic solution no worries about bugs. If you try this make sure you use 100% isopropyl.

FWIW, I've also had success using the 70% Isopropyl alcohol - I just adjust the mix appropriately.

mshchem · 2025-05-05T02:00:15-0400

MattKing said:
FWIW, I've also had success using the 70% Isopropyl alcohol - I just adjust the mix appropriately.

Makes sense, some of the old "rubbing alcohol" concoctions sold in the United States, years past contained a bit of lanolin or similar ingredient to soften the skin. Less common today. 190 proof ethanol would work too, just sayin'.

koraks · 2025-05-05T02:28:54-0400

fgorga said:
Try warming (or cooling, less likely but who knows! ) the solution by a small amount and see if the stock clears up. No need to go to extremes... 5-10 deg. C is plenty

That's an interesting thought, but this bottle has been sitting like this for a while and it has gone through temperature variations of around 5C at least. I can try warming it up a little more, though. However, I really think that something has changed permanently, because when fresh, this Adoflo wasn't milky.

jonathanchli said:
It is interesting that Adoflo uses CAS #68412-54-4 (IGEPAL CO630 or IGEPAL CO520) as a surfactant. Is it due to the ban/use of Triton X-100 by ECHA in 2021...?

That sounds entirely plausible. And it's also quite plausible that the safer alternative also has its drawbacks.

What makes old Adoflo go cloudy?

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