What Happens When We Ultra-Dilute Pyrocat-HDC?

[chuckroast]

If it's there (streaking) it will be close to the sprocket holes for sure. I think the power line shot

The only "unevenness" I see is in the 3rd example behind the tower on the left side. But this could have actually been the lighting or a scanning artefact. I have to check

and the woods scene look like a 35mm shot trying to be a "Big Boy" medium format shot. Those last two look to have the quality of medium format. Of course we're not looking at a 16X20" print. Still, those are darn nice to look at.

Yes, the ultra sharp, widely separated middle tones really make 35mm look the big boys.

 

[John Wiegerink]

The only "unevenness" I see is in the 3rd example behind the tower on the left side. But this could have actually been the lighting or a scanning artefact. I have to check



Yes, the ultra sharp, widely separated middle tones really make 35mm look the big boys.

I agree, if it were really a case of bromide drag you'd see it all the way across the top and on most every sprocket hole. Combined this developer and dilution with a good lens and a film like Tmax 100 and it could almost (?) come close to 4X5. Got to try this with my Contax G1 and its 45mm f2 Planar since my main developer is Pyrocat-HDC anyway.

 

[chuckroast]

I agree, if it were really a case of bromide drag you'd see it all the way across the top and on most every sprocket hole. Combined this developer and dilution with a good lens and a film like Tmax 100 and it could almost (?) come close to 4X5. Got to try this with my Contax G1 and its 45mm f2 Planar since my main developer is Pyrocat-HDC anyway.

Just be generous with total developer volume and put the reel on an inverted funnel.

....and show us the results

 

[John Wiegerink]

Just be generous with total developer volume and put the reel on an inverted funnel.

....and show us the results

I'll treat it like I do Perceptol 1+3. When I use Perceptol 1+3 I use a two reel SS tank for 120/220 film with an empty 35mm reel on the bottom of the tank and the next reel with the film. I've also become gentler with all my agitation than I used to be. I'm going to develop some film that way tomorrow and will post result of that and some Adox HR-50 film tests I did earlier. Oh, and it won't be super scientific either!

 

[chuckroast]

I'll treat it like I do Perceptol 1+3. When I use Perceptol 1+3 I use a two reel SS tank for 120/220 film with an empty 35mm reel on the bottom of the tank and the next reel with the film. I've also become gentler with all my agitation than I used to be. I'm going to develop some film that way tomorrow and will post result of that and some Adox HR-50 film tests I did earlier. Oh, and it won't be super scientific either!

I found that using a blank reel for spacing could still incur bromide drag. This is likely because developer is not getting moved away from the bottom of the film. The blank reel underneath is providing enough surface contact that it's trapping developer in place by the film above.

This is why I resorted to supporting a single reel well above the bottom of the tank, first with a rubber stopper of the diameter of the inner core of the reel, and then later with an inverted funnel. This essentially "floats" the reel above the bottom of the tank with nothing near it to prevent developer byproducts being pulled away by gravity - or as someone else here suggested - diffusion.

 

[chuckroast]

I checked the original print, and there is indeed an area of very slightly higher density between the high tension wires and the left tower in the 3rd image. It is nowhere near as pronounced as it is in the scan, which tells me something I did in post made it worse. It's thus tough to tell whether that's just the light, bromide drag, uneven agitation, or something else.

To be extra careful, I could add another agitation cycle ensure even development. This would mean:

- 3 min prewash​

- 1 min initial agitation​

- 5-10 sec agitation at 13, 25, 37, 49 min​

- Done at 60 min​

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Are there any edge effects that you observed in the prints?

 

[chuckroast]

Are there any edge effects that you observed in the prints?

There seems to be some, but they are very subtle. For example, in image # 2, where the two logs cross on the right, there seems to be an edge.

Subtle is good.

 

[Milpool]

A 1980s study looking at edge effects and the various variables involved, both Beutler (dilute metol) and POTA (Phenidone) gave the strongest edge effects via different mechanisms - without minimal agitation gymnastics. Granularity was found to move in the same direction (although keep in mind POTA was developed to a normal gradient in the study).

Edge effects are one of those things that can potentially get people into a forest for the trees situation. It’s one thing to see how far things can be pushed for the sake of study and bookending, but in an actual photograph if they are obvious/visible, that is to say if they are anything more than present enough to add to an “impression” of sharpness I would say you’ve gone way too far. They are what unsharp masking does (darkroom or digital) and overdoing it quickly leads to a characteristic “wired”, harsh look. Of course if that is a desired effect then no argument here.

 

[chuckroast]

A 1980s study looking at edge effects and the various variables involved, both Beutler (dilute metol) and POTA (Phenidone) gave the strongest edge effects via different mechanisms - without minimal agitation gymnastics. Granularity was found to move in the same direction (although keep in mind POTA was developed to a normal gradient in the study).

Edge effects are one of those things that can potentially get people into a forest for the trees situation. It’s one thing to see how far things can be pushed for the sake of study and bookending, but in an actual photograph if they are obvious/visible, that is to say if they are anything more than present enough to add to an “impression” of sharpness I would say you’ve gone way too far. They are what unsharp masking does (darkroom or digital) and overdoing it quickly leads to a characteristic “wired”, harsh look. Of course if that is a desired effect then no argument here.

100% agree. The exercise here is more about finding limits, but in actual practice, an overly sharp or too defined Mackie line can be obnoxious.

 

[chuckroast]

Limits of what?

The limits of dilution that provide increasing sharpness and good tonal results.

How are they specified?

In limits per nanometer squared.

Photography is a visual medium and what I care about is how the results look. I think I made it pretty clear that I am not doing precise sensiometric testing here - nor do I intend to. You may see the results and decide for yourself how it looks, or even you even care at all.

Think of it more like "show and tell" and not "Look Dr. Johnson, I learned to use a slide rule just for your analytical chemistry class."

 

[Lachlan Young]

I don’t think it makes much sense to discuss tone reproduction and all that but one technical comment I’ll make is these kinds of minimal agitation techniques are probably best reserved for busier subjects ie scenes without featureless areas like skies etc. due to uniform development being an impossibility (example 3 above).

Never mind trying to get low frequency edge/ adjacency effects from a material that isn't really engineered to intentionally deliver them...

It's like watching someone take a 50min detour (speeding wildly) to make a worse job of what could have been a 5min walk if they understood the research that led to the manufacturers' eventual products.

 

[chuckroast]

Never mind trying to get low frequency edge/ adjacency effects from a material that isn't really engineered to intentionally deliver them...

It's like watching someone take a 50min detour (speeding wildly) to make a worse job of what could have been a 5min walk if they understood the research that led to the manufacturers' eventual products.

Would love to see actual photographs demonstrating this as opposed to abstract potifications.

I'll wait right here.

 

[GregY]

Would love to see actual photographs demonstrating this as opposed to abstract potifications.

I'll wait right here.

..
"abstract pontifications" .... sounds like a great name for a debate team or rock band CR......

 

[chuckroast]

..
"abstract pontifications" .... sounds like a great name for a debate team or rock band CR......

Abstract Pontifications And The Gregtones tonight at the Photrio Lounge.

"What we can't play, we'll play louder."

 

[GregY]

The limits of dilution that provide increasing sharpness and good tonal results.



In limits per nanometer squared.

Photography is a visual medium and what I care about is how the results look. I think I made it pretty clear that I am not doing precise sensiometric testing here - nor do I intend to. You may see the results and decide for yourself how it looks, or even you even care at all.

Thing of it more like "show and tell" and not "Look Dr. Johnson, I learned to use a slide rule just for your analytical chemistry class."

Nicely phrased CR.
Non-verbal ...... Show me the prints
I think photographs & music have much in common.
Hold the "abstract pontifications"
As far as i'll go with regard to the slide rule is the following 'show & tell'

 

[GregY]

Nicely phrased CR.

Abstract Pontifications And The Gregtones tonight at the Photrio Lounge.

"What we can't play, we'll play louder."

the effect will be on the edge (sic).......

 

[pentaxuser]

Abstract Pontifications And The Gregtones tonight at the Photrio Lounge.

"What we can't play, we'll play louder."

A sentence that has a kind of a "ring" to it that I like

pentaxuser

 

[chuckroast]

A sentence that has a kind of a "ring" to it that I like

pentaxuser

It is a riff on an old Miles Davis comment. There was a new player in his band one night who did not do well and was making mistakes. Davis leaned over and said "If you don't know the tune, play the melody" or words to that effect ...

 

[chuckroast]

Nicely phrased CR.
Non-verbal ...... Show me the prints
I think photographs & music have much in common.
Hold the "abstract pontifications"
As far as i'll go with regard to the slide rule is the following 'show & tell'

I have both an sun-moon-star Dobro and a mid-1950s Epi Broadway setup for slide but I can't play like that. Aaaappparently, better equipment doesn't make you a better artist. Who knew?

(And Union Station was superb with this guy in it.)

 

[chuckroast]

The limits of dilution that provide increasing sharpness and good tonal results.



In limits per nanometer squared.

Photography is a visual medium and what I care about is how the results look. I think I made it pretty clear that I am not doing precise sensiometric testing here - nor do I intend to. You may see the results and decide for yourself how it looks, or even you even care at all.

Think of it more like "show and tell" and not "Look Dr. Johnson, I learned to use a slide rule just for your analytical chemistry class."

After a reread of this ... my apologies to @Alan Johnson if I seemed dismissive or snide. I was trying to be humorous and failed. Mea culpa.

 

[Alan Johnson]

No, IMO you did a good job in post 14, and my comments about edge effects were off topic. Will read more carefully in future.

 

[chuckroast]

No, IMO you did a good job in post 14, and my comments about edge effects were off topic. Will read more carefully in future.

Actually, I am interested in edge effects and have followed your work in the other thread.

Anyway, I didn't mean to come off dismissively. The internet is terrible at nuance ;(

 

[GregY]

CR "The internet is terrible at nuance ;( "

CR did you mean to say the internet is a terrible nuisance ? .....sometimes autocorrect.... you know

BTW I've used PMK & Pyrocat for decades....mostly standard dilutions...and occasionally divided.
Your show&tell has given me interest in trying the EMA approach....

 

[chuckroast]

CR "The internet is terrible at nuance ;( "

CR did you mean to say the internet is a terrible nuisance ? .....sometimes autocorrect.... you know

BTW I've used PMK & Pyrocat for decades....mostly standard dilutions...and occasionally divided.
Your show&tell has given me interest in trying the EMA approach....

I am available to consult. My fees involve Canadian beer.