what happens to retired film formulas?

[Sal Santamaura]

What does InovisCoat make these days?

Based on answers Mirko has given to questions about what's manufactured where, at a minimum InovisCoat still coats MCC 110 for ADOX. Possibly additional ADOX products like MCP as well. I've discerned no clues that any ADOX AgX materials other than the upcoming Polywarmtone paper are coated at Marley.

 

[twelvetone12]

If I understood correctly, Polywarmtone and CHS II are both made here in Fribourg.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

If I understood correctly, Polywarmtone and CHS II are both made here in Fribourg.

In this post

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/forte-polywarmtone.47483/page-12#post-2181485​

Mirko shows a picture of some Polywarmtone traveling on a ferry from Switzerland, which I deduce means it's coated in Marley. That would be consistent with his earlier blog entries about Polywarmtone. I've no information about CHS II.

 

[BMbikerider]

If any of them are like Ilford, they still have them but one or two of the more obscure recipes are held by them, but they will not publicise them or release for public consumption. I am principally thinking here of Ilford Hyfin. Produced only as a powder and was as good as, if not better than Rodinal. The development was timed at 18 mins @ 68F with minimal agitation, but for only Ilford FP3 or PanF with the same times. (Yes it is that old) If I recall correctly the packet contained 4 sachet of powder each enough to make 500cc. Use undiluted, once and throw away. I think it was discontinued sometime around 1966-70. It really was a wonderful brew.

 

[Nodda Duma]

Bob is absolutely correct. While an actual "formula" for an emulsion may be 2 or 3 pages long for the procedures of the precipitation, the actual information necessary to prepare the emulsion and the film could fill a book. The "formula" includes codes such as AF-2033 (made up), which would be a reference to a database of AF solutions (antifoggants for this example), which would contain a procedure for making the AF-2033 solution and specify a method and CAS #s for the ingredients therein.

Put all together, this would be pages and pages of information all converging on the head and finally the end of the coating machine. Then, the slitters, choppers, packers and customers and these all have their needs too.

PE

Just thinking about my simple emulsions...totally agree. My formulas are maybe a page long, but to replicate from scratch would be a 100+ page write-up, a handful of excel spreadsheets, and a power point presentation thrown in for good measure.

 

[Henning Serger]

Don't forget that Carestream still operates in the US using Kodak equipment and making products for ALARIS.

PE

Hello Ron,
I am very well aware of that. Carestream is not only coating colour paper (RA-4) for Kodak Alaris, but is also one of the major players in the X-ray film market. The other big players in the X-ray film market are Fujifilm, Agfa (Belgium) and Foma. That market has remained more attractive as expected some years ago. Because of important healthcare reforms in China and other Asian countries the demand from Asia has very strongly increased in the last years. And in addition the demand from technical X-ray markets also remained on a relative stable level. Last year Fujifilm explained in one of their financial reports that they are working to increase their market share in the X-ray film market.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Sal,

I've discerned no clues that any ADOX AgX materials other than the upcoming Polywarmtone paper are coated at Marley.

after the acquisition ADOX has had to invest a lot of work and capital to modernise the Marly facility to fit the needs of ADOX and the future market. Now this facility is playing an important role in all new ADOX paper and film products, for R&D and production.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I've discerned no clues that any ADOX AgX materials other than the upcoming Polywarmtone paper are coated at Marley.

...after the acquisition ADOX has had to invest a lot of work and capital to modernise the Marly facility to fit the needs of ADOX and the future market. Now this facility is playing an important role in all new ADOX paper and film products, for R&D and production...

ADOX's use of its Marley equipment for R&D aside, are any other currently produced/sold sensitized products regularly coated there? I infer from the Polywarmtone blog, as well as some of Mirko's answers on PHOTRIO, that this resurrected paper will be first to market from Marley (after finishing in Berlin).

 

[cmacd123]

And in addition the demand from technical X-ray markets also remained on a relative stable level. Last year Fujifilm explained in one of their financial reports that they are working to increase their market share in the X-ray film market.

when the notice came out this week that 16mm Ektachrome Movie stock was now shipping I went to the main Kodak.com site, and one of the banners was referring to Kodak X-ray film for Non destructive Testing. I wonder if that comes from Carestream? or if they have a new line? or like some of the microfilm it comes from Agfa Belgum?

BTW, an item in the business news concerning a takeover of WestJet Airlines recently mentioned that Carestream is actually owned by Canadian Venture Capital folks ONEX. (who are trying to buy Westjet)

 

[destroya]

wow, I go to Yosemite for a day photo trip and return to great responses. Many thanks for all the great info.

my thought was just that if possible in todays market, if there was demand for a film, could it be re-introduced back into the market after a long layoff. Looking at ektachrome,, It seems to be taking a lot longer than people hoped for kodak to bring it back, even though it was not that long ago that is was discontinued. and clearly they have the machines to produce film. that, along with the acros retirement, had me thinking, thats all. II know that there are many other factors that go into creating and making a film, I was just thinking about it at 50,000 feet

thanks again

john

 

[twelvetone12]

ADOX's use of its Marley equipment for R&D aside, are any other currently produced/sold sensitized products regularly coated there?

I think CHS in sheets is the first product coated in Marly, the reintroduction of CHS was delayed because they were forced to coat it in house and had to do all the relative R&D to make it work.

 

[Agulliver]

Another point to consider....why would a manufacturer waste physical and/or data space storing old formulae? The Film Ferrania guys happened to discover hand-written notes from the 50s in an old filing cabinet which enabled them to recreate P30, but there's really no reason why all these old films should be detailed in dusty basements. Witness camera manufacturers (and former cassette deck manufacturers) who have been asked in recent years if blueprints exist for products made in the 70s and 80s.....the replies are almost always "Sorry, all got thrown away". I think Sankyo were the major exception here, they did keep blueprints for cameras and cassette mechanisms for a couple of decades.

As others have said, even if a few pages detailing the constituent chemicals existed...that would not allow someone to replicate the film today even if all the chemicals were freely available. I'd hazard a guess that the least difficult to replicate might be early emulsions before things got too complicated....assuming the chemicals used are still available. Often once demand for a specific chemical dies down, it's no longer manufactured or prohibitively expensive....in some cases improved safety regulations and pollution control render a chemical economically nonviable to manufacture.

 

[Henning Serger]

ADOX's use of its Marley equipment for R&D aside, are any other currently produced/sold sensitized products regularly coated there? I infer from the Polywarmtone blog, as well as some of Mirko's answers on PHOTRIO, that this resurrected paper will be first to market from Marley (after finishing in Berlin).

Hello Sal,
the first finished commercial product coated in Marly has been the ADOX SNAP-ON filters about 1.5 years ago. At that time ADOX also explained that this was the first product coated there. I've tested these filters intensively just after their introduction (they're good, very nice product) and in my talks with them they explained that even in further detail, because it was a little "breakthrough" for them after all the hard work in modernising the Marly facility.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

wow, I go to Yosemite for a day photo trip and return to great responses. Many thanks for all the great info.

my thought was just that if possible in todays market, if there was demand for a film, could it be re-introduced back into the market after a long layoff. Looking at ektachrome,, It seems to be taking a lot longer than people hoped for kodak to bring it back, even though it was not that long ago that is was discontinued.

john

John,
Ektachrome is a very good example how difficult it is to bring a certain film back. Or to be more precise: It shows that it is often impossible to bring a film back with identical characteristics.
I've used E100G and Elitechrome 100 in the past, and I have tested of course the new Ektachrome E100 as well. And it is a significantly different film compared to former E100G, E100GX and Elitechrome 100.
Film Ferrania P30 is another example, also quite different from its original.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[AgX]

when the notice came out this week that 16mm Ektachrome Movie stock was now shipping I went to the main Kodak.com site, and one of the banners was referring to Kodak X-ray film for Non destructive Testing. I wonder if that comes from Carestream? or if [Kodak] have a new line?

-) Carestream produce both medical and NDT X-ray films. Their NDT films had both Carestream and Kodak on their label plus a Kodak trade name. Meanwhile the term Kodak has vanished, but the old tradename still is there.
So, yes the situation is the same as the Agfa microfilm situation: another manufacturer making the films, but them being marketed with a reference to Kodak.

-) Since 4 weeks Kodak are again offering NDT films.
Under the Kodak brand , but with the new tradename Indutrial X-ray.

From this I conclude that Kodak themselves are manufacturing these films. Otherwise, Carestream producing under two labels, the Carestream films by now should have lost all Kodak reference. At least at their website.

 

[twelvetone12]

Ferrania did not recreate P30 from the manuscript note, but they found a microfilm with the complete specification on how to produce it on the small coater and used that.

 

[Photo Engineer]

As for re-creating old films, just consider how the large scale industrial use of Methyl Mercuric Iodide, Cadmium Nitrate and Lead Acetate would go over today! These are some of the ingredients that were replaced in the old films and papers.

PE

 

[Sal Santamaura]

ADOX's use of its Marley equipment for R&D aside, are any other currently produced/sold sensitized products regularly coated there?...

...the first finished commercial product coated in Marly has been the ADOX SNAP-ON filters about 1.5 years ago. At that time ADOX also explained that this was the first product coated there. I've tested these filters intensively just after their introduction (they're good, very nice product) and in my talks with them they explained that even in further detail, because it was a little "breakthrough" for them after all the hard work in modernising the Marly facility...

Thank you for confirming my understanding, namely, that Polywarmtone will be the first commercially offered sensitized ADOX product coated in Marley.

I still have no idea where CMS II is coated, but am highly confident it's not in Marley.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I've used E100G and Elitechrome 100 in the past, and I have tested of course the new Ektachrome E100 as well. And it is a significantly different film compared to former E100G, E100GX and Elitechrome 100...

It would be most interesting to hear the way(s) in which you found E100 different, particularly as compared to E100G. Thanks in advance for any details you can share.

 

[twelvetone12]

Why not? The reason given by Adox to the delay in CHS is that they had to produce it in Marly earlier than they thought.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I still have no idea where CMS II is coated, but am highly confident it's not in Marley.

Why not? The reason given by Adox to the delay in CHS is that they had to produce it in Marly earlier than they thought.

My conclusion about CMS II was reached based on both the wording of Henning's reply in post #38 -- he omitted mention of anything other than filters -- and Mirko's posts concerning CMS II. In the latter, Mirko discussed test coatings at Marley, but I can find no mention of regular production occurring there.

Reading between the lines is a challenge. Perhaps I should have said "confident" instead of "highly confident."

 

[Lachlan Young]

My conclusion about CMS II was reached based on both the wording of Henning's reply in post #38 -- he omitted mention of anything other than filters -- and Mirko's posts concerning CMS II. In the latter, Mirko discussed test coatings at Marley, but I can find no mention of regular production occurring there.

Reading between the lines is a challenge. Perhaps I should have said "confident" instead of "highly confident."

http://www.adox.de/Photo/chs-100-ii-trial-coating/
Since then it seems they have been sufficiently happy with the quality of coating of CHS-II such as to be able to proceed to the sheet products now available from Fotoimpex.

 

[Arcadia4]

Adox CHS II was their first film to be coated at Marly in 2018 as stated by twelvetone12. Currently only available in sheets with 120/135 to follow

ADOX CMS II is a Agfa-Gevaert Micro film - Copex HDP (High Definition Pan), so produced at Mortsel, Belgium.
Adox convert the film themselves, video from Mirko explaining why they can't offer it in 120 at the moment, which neatly explains some of the complexities of slitting film.
http://www.adox.de/Photo/main-slitt...-why-we-cant-make-any-120-film-at-the-moment/

ADOX also own an ex Agfa coater, which they are currently installing at their expanded site in Germany. Production on that is probably some way off however.
https://www.adox.de/Photo/first-works-on-the-coater/

 

[Arcadia4]

Following up on hennings post - firms with ex Agfa kit;
Adox - Agfa Coater being re-installed (and a small pilot coater from leverkusen research)
Inoviscoat - Agfa Coater (scaled down to reduce width of c1m plus a pilot coater )
Harman/Ilford - Agfa film packaging equipment
Leverkusen lives on..

 

[twelvetone12]

Now we can just home Adox/Mirko find their "20 very good engineers" and five years of funding so they can make color too!