1. No, I am not. 2. I explained myself better than most will ever do in any situation.
What happens after ISO 800 is gone?
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1. No, I am not. 2. I explained myself better than most will ever do in any situation.
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what makes people abandon film ?
the fact that they can't get it anymore,
or they can't find it where they usually shop
and they can't get it processed where they usually do
or the store they usually buy stuff and have it processed at
goes out of business, or tells them they can't get it because
no enough people buy it &C ... or it is a PITA to do everything mail order ..
or it becomes harder and harder to get the chemistry to process it
oneself, or darn near illegal to dispose of the chemistry without
having to deal with permits &C ... or the artschools and high schools
stop having traditional / wet photography classes
im not a doom or gloomer, but a realist,
the sun isn't setting, its more like an artic winter ...
oh ...
i have a case of 1600 fujicolor press someone sold to me
for about 1$ a roll
im not worried if i can't get 1600 anymorecause i have more than i will shoot in 10 years ...
To every gloomy one;
Well, let's see who's right in 2015.
5 years ago I had exactly the same discussion on the Internet, heard the same arguments and same prophecies; in 2010, if not earlier, film will be dead or almost dead. Some said only BW will be available, some said E6 will live but C41 die, etc. etc. I said the same things as I say now. And now the sales are rising. My simple and realistic forecast was completely right, their stupid prophecies were wrong. The only difference in the discussion was that they were some kind of film-haters and shot digital. I'm surprised I'm undergoing the same discussion here. What's wrong with you?
Film is not so hard&expensive to manufacture. There are enough cameras that eat film and people will use them because they own them and buy them because they are interested in them. There is a huge selection of films, at least eight 800-1600 speed color negs. If sales keep at the current level, there will be only little discontinuations, if sales start to decline again, maybe there won't be eight 800-1600 color negs available anymore, but "only" 3-5 for instance.
The manufacturing infrastructure and industry is there, but the machinery can't be used to anything else but to make film. They have a finished product with no further R&D costs and people buy it. It is wise to keep it running if it makes any money. Same goes with processing services. There is huge amount of minilabs running. Chemistry is not rocket science. And, there is always a place for new business if there is demand and something happens to current supply of services; for example, I have seriously considered starting a business (photo store & film development services) and may do it in the future. There are many businessmen among us hobbyists.
You use circular argument; Film will die because we don't buy it, and we don't buy it because it has died, and that causes it to die. As if some higher entity (The Evil Kodak?) would take it magically away from us? If you mean that, say that. Don't use circular argument.
Let's wait for 5 years and see.
Anyone wanna bet some money? I can promise to buy film with it when I win. I can also promise that if I lose, I will devote my life to learn making color neg films and as high-speed as possible.
I find it funny how slow you people can sometimes be even here at APUG where usually I find people quite rational. Come on, it's 2010 now. These arguments are 4-6 years old, when there was many severe discontinuations. Look at the current situation.
And look at yourself; if you are asked "would you use film in the future", everyone of you will answer; YES. What makes you believe that most of the other people would not answer the same way? Can you see anyone who answers NO? Can you imagine a person who has used film until 2010 and then suddenly stops using it? If you can, do you really believe that most of the people would be like that?
"Film is harder to get and that will kill it" is the funniest argument ever. It means you admit there's more demand than supply. Exactly when that kind of situation has killed a product? That's just the opposite. Temporary problems to provide products as the demand is higher than expected, is always a GOOD sign, not a bad sign.
Just like the new Ektar 100 was definitely a BAD sign, meaning that other films will be discontinued, and so on. And Kodak is evil and so on.
COME ON WAKE UP!!! I know you may be quite fearful about the global economical recession that especially touches the USA, but recessions are not endless, companies that have real products people buy suffer less, and there are also other film manufacturers located outside the USA....... for example, Japan: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marc-faber-offers-upbeat-view-on-japan-2010-02-22
You are way too gloomy and boring. Oh please...
Well, let's see who's right in 2015.
5 years ago I had exactly the same discussion on the Internet, heard the same arguments and same prophecies; in 2010, if not earlier, film will be dead or almost dead. Some said only BW will be available, some said E6 will live but C41 die, etc. etc. I said the same things as I say now. And now the sales are rising. My simple and realistic forecast was completely right, their stupid prophecies were wrong. The only difference in the discussion was that they were some kind of film-haters and shot digital. I'm surprised I'm undergoing the same discussion here. What's wrong with you?
Film is not so hard&expensive to manufacture. There are enough cameras that eat film and people will use them because they own them and buy them because they are interested in them. There is a huge selection of films, at least eight 800-1600 speed color negs. If sales keep at the current level, there will be only little discontinuations, if sales start to decline again, maybe there won't be eight 800-1600 color negs available anymore, but "only" 3-5 for instance.
The manufacturing infrastructure and industry is there, but the machinery can't be used to anything else but to make film. They have a finished product with no further R&D costs and people buy it. It is wise to keep it running if it makes any money. Same goes with processing services. There is huge amount of minilabs running. Chemistry is not rocket science. And, there is always a place for new business if there is demand and something happens to current supply of services; for example, I have seriously considered starting a business (photo store & film development services) and may do it in the future. There are many businessmen among us hobbyists.
You use circular argument; Film will die because we don't buy it, and we don't buy it because it has died, and that causes it to die. As if some higher entity (The Evil Kodak?) would take it magically away from us? If you mean that, say that. Don't use circular argument.
Let's wait for 5 years and see.
Anyone wanna bet some money? I can promise to buy film with it when I win. I can also promise that if I lose, I will devote my life to learn making color neg films and as high-speed as possible.
I find it funny how slow you people can sometimes be even here at APUG where usually I find people quite rational. Come on, it's 2010 now. These arguments are 4-6 years old, when there was many severe discontinuations. Look at the current situation.
And look at yourself; if you are asked "would you use film in the future", everyone of you will answer; YES. What makes you believe that most of the other people would not answer the same way? Can you see anyone who answers NO? Can you imagine a person who has used film until 2010 and then suddenly stops using it? If you can, do you really believe that most of the people would be like that?
"Film is harder to get and that will kill it" is the funniest argument ever. It means you admit there's more demand than supply. Exactly when that kind of situation has killed a product? That's just the opposite. Temporary problems to provide products as the demand is higher than expected, is always a GOOD sign, not a bad sign.
Just like the new Ektar 100 was definitely a BAD sign, meaning that other films will be discontinued, and so on. And Kodak is evil and so on.
COME ON WAKE UP!!! I know you may be quite fearful about the global economical recession that especially touches the USA, but recessions are not endless, companies that have real products people buy suffer less, and there are also other film manufacturers located outside the USA....... for example, Japan: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marc-faber-offers-upbeat-view-on-japan-2010-02-22
You are way too gloomy and boring. Oh please...
The original topic was strictly about ISO 800 and higher color film. And somehow it has turned into "the death of film in 2015". hrst, I agree, it has gotten out of hand now. Oh well, no damage done. If anything it will encourage people on the fence buy and shoot more high speed film.
btw, what are the 8 ISO 800+ films?
Kodak Max 800
Kodak Portra 800
Fuji Superia/Press 800
Fuji 800Z
Ferrania 800
Fuji Press/Superia 1600
Fuji Natura 1600
That's 7. What is the 8th?
And where does one buy Ferrania 800? Fuji Natura 1600? Hell, even Max 800 is hard to find outside of disposable cameras (though I was surprised to see some in 4 packs @ CVS recently--albeit short-dated).
btw, what are the 8 ISO 800+ films?
Kodak Max 800
Kodak Portra 800
Fuji Superia/Press 800
Fuji 800Z
Ferrania 800
Fuji Press/Superia 1600
Fuji Natura 1600
That's 7. What is the 8th?
And where does one buy Ferrania 800? Fuji Natura 1600? Hell, even Max 800 is hard to find outside of disposable cameras (though I was surprised to see some in 4 packs @ CVS recently--albeit short-dated).
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I have some Fuji Press 800 around somewhere if someone wants to buy some...but apart from that, the question "What to do when/if 800 speed colour goes away?
Sell your 2.8 lenses for 1.4 ones and get to know 400, I guess.
Sell your 2.8 lenses for 1.4 ones and get to know 400, I guess.
Over here it still is no problem at all to find a full range af at least the amateur 35mm range in a local shop, but nevertheless sales are declining.
I listed them before and someone added MAX800. I thought Fuji Natura 1600 is same as Superia 1600, just a different name for Japanese market, so I didn't list it. As I said, different bases are listed as different products, because from the manufacturing viewpoint they are different and each size must sell enough to be manufactured. There are a long master roll for each size and all the sales issues and shorter expiry dates for each size.
Well okay, everything I said in the previous message will hold true for strictly ISO 800 and higher color films. In fact I meant them as I wrote, I just wrote more in general. Do you want to bid money? I can say it more straightforward: there will be at least three ISO800 or higher color film products (different sizes are different products if they are on different base) on the market from Kodak and/or Fuji in 2015. (If Kodak has none, then Fuji must have three, and so on.) Or wanna bet about 2020, if 2015 is too close?
Other than 2 rolls of 3200 in 20 yrs. I never shoot much over 400 asa. I really don't see much use for it. But at the same time. Discontinung any film right really bothers me. Because as film is being discontinued a relacement is not being offered.
I feel like I have repeated this but instead of the doom and gloom lets shoot ISO 800!! 
I feel like I have repeated this but instead of the doom and gloom lets shoot ISO 800!!
I'm starting to build a hybrid workflow and I've considered from B&W ASA 400 (pushed) to the ASA 800 color offerings. I'm considering to do the latter first, it would be easier to print too. The best of B&W aside of it's character is that it doesn't show colour casts. Oh, well, I can correct them while scanning... whatever.
I'm a low light/indoors shooter, and like the fast film offerings. Putting KR64 in the camera frozen me for months, but at least I enjoyed last fall.
It's my speed of choice!
I feel like I have repeated this but instead of the doom and gloom lets shoot ISO 800!!
And ISO 1600 too!
While we're at it, let's try pushing the ISO 400 films to EIs of 1600, 3200, and 6400 and shoot them head-to-head with the higher ISOs. It's all in the name of finding alternatives in case the 1600 or 800 goes away.
GREAT NEWS! I hope it's enough to offset the market shrinkage that has been occurring.
I was tempted to bet a roll of Kodak Portra 800, but then I realized that would be plain stupid. Why would I bet for something I DON'T want to happen? If anything, I'd be more likely to make a bet that I could come up with a working alternative using an ISO 400 film and push processing.
Well, there's no magic in pushing. Shoot at 800 and develop for 3'45. It is not a real alternative but it may be sufficient for some purposes. Just try it to see if it suits you.
Usually you need more speed in dark situations at night, and that's when there's usually high contrast. Push processing increases contrast even more and doesn't give much shadow speed, so it is not so efficient and you may blow up highlights. If you SCAN, then you have curves to work with and push processing may work much better as you can save the highlights afterwards. In analog printing, some kind of contrast mask may be necessary.
The real thing to do is to practice shooting without camera shake. If your grip is not perfect, you can easily get 2-3 stops more "speed" by just practicing the correct way to shoot. The second best is to buy faster lenses. Then comes push processing and other chemical intensifications.
Even without betting anything, I can promise that I will start experimenting with pushing and intensifications and will report the results if the faster films are going somewhere. I need fast films, too.
Usually you need more speed in dark situations at night, and that's when there's usually high contrast. Push processing increases contrast even more and doesn't give much shadow speed, so it is not so efficient and you may blow up highlights. If you SCAN, then you have curves to work with and push processing may work much better as you can save the highlights afterwards. In analog printing, some kind of contrast mask may be necessary.
The real thing to do is to practice shooting without camera shake. If your grip is not perfect, you can easily get 2-3 stops more "speed" by just practicing the correct way to shoot. The second best is to buy faster lenses. Then comes push processing and other chemical intensifications.
Even without betting anything, I can promise that I will start experimenting with pushing and intensifications and will report the results if the faster films are going somewhere. I need fast films, too.
I have never pushed a neg film. Has anyone pushed a 400 or 800 with success. It seems like some people will tell you not to.......
I do it all the time, Patrick. Probably over half the time that I shoot an 800 or 1600 film, I push it in processing. I do it when I need to underexpose, but additionally, if I shoot in flat light, I push as a matter of course, with normal exposure. Since 800 films are usually flatter than slower films, the push in flat light helps a lot, IMO.
Actually, I'm talking about extreme push processing...getting a usable EI 3200 or 6400 out of a 400 speed film. At this point in the game, I am not doing my own color developing. But that may soon change...
I'm scanning color negs or having them scanned, so yes.
Even if I can handhold down to 1/4 sec, subject movement can become an issue. As for lenses, I'm already using f/1.8 primes for 35mm.
Good. But once we have success with a given increment of push, we need to try a higher push increment until we get to the point where it becomes unusable...and then back off just a bit. We also need to test native high ISO film against the pushed film, both shot side-by-side while we still can. Otherwise, there is nothing to compare to.
What is intensification?
Great news then 2F/2F
Well, it depends on your needs and criteria what is "usable". Like I said, there is no magic. You can push the 400 ISO color neg film to EI 3200 if you just do it, but the results are not good. Just do it, and if you like the results, it's ok then. But if you are looking for a general answer, there is no such.
You can start with just underexposing with normal development and increase contrast in scanning. That will be the "look" even if you push process. It may get a bit better than that when push processing, but not so much.
By intensification I mean ways to pump up the contrast by first developing in a BW developer, bleaching in rehalogenating bleach (ferricyanide+bromide) and doing it again and finally developing in color developer. I haven't tried it by myself (yet). The results can be interesting for some purposes but again, there is no "general" good way to increase EI; if there was, it would be the official process and films were faster! But, for your personal needs; experiment! You may find something but not a general answer.
You can start with just underexposing with normal development and increase contrast in scanning. That will be the "look" even if you push process. It may get a bit better than that when push processing, but not so much.
By intensification I mean ways to pump up the contrast by first developing in a BW developer, bleaching in rehalogenating bleach (ferricyanide+bromide) and doing it again and finally developing in color developer. I haven't tried it by myself (yet). The results can be interesting for some purposes but again, there is no "general" good way to increase EI; if there was, it would be the official process and films were faster! But, for your personal needs; experiment! You may find something but not a general answer.
But what I mean is that even if we devote our time to experiment with pushing current color neg films, we won't achieve much. I would be much more interested in other kind of experiments; for example, using movie film stock like Vision3 500T for still photography, printed analog. Or experimenting with home-brewed Ilfochrome chemistry, or reversal RA-4 process, or making emulsions, whatever. It's more interesting when you know that you can achieve really something new and not just struggle between bad and worse.
If there was a magical way to boost film speed by 3-4 stops with generally good or even so-so results, it would be a common practice.
If there was a magical way to boost film speed by 3-4 stops with generally good or even so-so results, it would be a common practice.
Has anyone tried to process the Vision film in C-41? If it works we should all pitch in on a roll and someone can cut it and roll it up that know how/ has the equipment 
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