What Gray Card?

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runswithsizzers

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I just checked USA resellers Amazon, B&H, & Adorama, and the Kodak 18% gray card is not in stock. Some sellers say the Kodak gray card is "out of print" or "no longer available." This Kodak <website> describes a gray card under the heading "Motion Picture" but does not say where to get one.

There are several companies offering similar gray cards, but they are brands I never heard of. What have members tried using as substitutes for the Kodak gray card -- and which ones would you recommend to use, or stay away from?

Are the collapsable ones (printed on fabric) reasonable aternatives?
 

RalphLambrecht

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I just checked USA resellers Amazon, B&H, & Adorama, and the Kodak 18% gray card is not in stock. Some sellers say the Kodak gray card is "out of print" or "no longer available." This Kodak <website> describes a gray card under the heading "Motion Picture" but does not say where to get one.

There are several companies offering similar gray cards, but they are brands I never heard of. What have members tried using as substitutes for the Kodak gray card -- and which ones would you recommend to use, or stay away from?

Are the collapsable ones (printed on fabric) reasonable aternatives?

Sorry, no , only ever use the Kodak gray Card
 

madNbad

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Compared to the Kodak Gray Card the plastic ones seem to be considerably lighter gray. I’ve been looking for a fiber based card and found a few on eBay, including one that looks to be fairly close to the Kodak.
Mennon Gray Card:

I haven’t ordered any yet but probably will.
 
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runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

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Find an old Kodak Darkroom Data Guide, IIRC, the older ones had a gray card page.
Did a quick check of the auction site: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2850198371...1291&msclkid=e4c64c60784918b96e80282af19a4dae
Yes, I did find some on eBay described as "new" but possibly old stock. I have seen some anecdotal reports about the Kodak cards fading with hard use, but I assume an old card in the original packaging will probably still be OK(?)

Does anyone know for sure if Kodak has quit making gray cards, and if so, how long has it been since the last batch was printed?
 

madNbad

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I ran into the same thing while searching for gray cards. I have two Kodak cards that I bought years ago and just cut the really beat up one down to a 5X7 size. I saw the listing for Kodak cards but it looks like it’s been several years since they stopped selling them.
 

xkaes

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What have members tried using as substitutes for the Kodak gray card -- and which ones would you recommend to use, or stay away from?

It's called an incident meter -- and much more accurate than a gray card (NO reflections). But gray cards have several uses -- especially the white side.
 
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I was told, during my university years, that the Classified section of a newspaper makes a good substitute for a Gray Card; or as I prefer it, "Grey Card."

But then, who buys a daily paper anymore?
 

Kino

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Order information is buried in the website, but is in each price guide; one for US, one for Europe and one for Canada.
 

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mshchem

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I think I may have a dozen of these filed away. People give me stuff 😄

Order information is buried in the website, but is in each price guide; one for US, one for Europe and one for Canada.


Order information is buried in the website, but is in each price guide; one for US, one for Europe and one for Canada.

I think I may be Moogs! I'm a Marching Moron, endlessly accumulating junk. No hope for me😄🤪
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Anything can be used in lieu of a grey card. 18% just happens to be the the accepted standard for an 'average scene.' If your particular 'average scenes' aren't reflecting 18% then the use of a standard card for everyday metering will throw your exposures off.

A sheet of white cardboard makes a good substitute (and the reason the back of an 18% card is white). Set the meter reading opposite the meter's ZVIII mark (or increase the meter's film speed setting by 3 stops) - adjust this value as needed.

Reflected light meters - the sort that is pointed at the subject and is built into cameras - work much better for negative processes. The goal when shooting negatives is to get as much of the scene detail onto the film as possible. Manipulating tones to make the print look like the subject is done in the printing. Incident meters and grey cards are better suited to setting for cinematography and studio lighting where they are used for balancing lighting.

I'm afraid the debate over 18% cards will be as interminable as that over stop baths. The more irrelevant the matter the greater the debate.
 

Sirius Glass

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Use your hand which is usually attached and handy for the reading and then close down one stop.
 
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runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

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It's called an incident meter -- and much more accurate than a gray card (NO reflections). But gray cards have several uses -- especially the white side.

Thank you. I do have a couple of light meters, and in tricky lighting situations, the first thing I do is to take an incident reading. And I am also painfully aware of how the "shine" from the surface of a gray card can affect meter readings.

The great minds of the forum will no doubt think it irrelevant - and possibly a Bad Idea - but my thought was to include a gray card in some of my photos to see if it might be helpful in evaluating exposure and white balance AFTER the scene is metered and captured. Yes? No?
 

Pieter12

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Thank you. I do have a couple of light meters, and in tricky lighting situations, the first thing I do is to take an incident reading. And I am also painfully aware of how the "shine" from the surface of a gray card can affect meter readings.

The great minds of the forum will no doubt think it irrelevant - and possibly a Bad Idea - but my thought was to include a gray card in some of my photos to see if it might be helpful in evaluating exposure and white balance AFTER the scene is metered and captured. Yes? No?

Every gray card I've used has a matte surface, no shine or glare. For critical color work, I will usually make an exposure with a color chart in the scene, then crop it out. If that is not possible, a follow-up exposure without the chart.
 

Kino

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The great minds of the forum will no doubt think it irrelevant - and possibly a Bad Idea - but my thought was to include a gray card in some of my photos to see if it might be helpful in evaluating exposure and white balance AFTER the scene is metered and captured. Yes? No?

Sure. Works great as a "sanity check"...
 

BMbikerider

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I use the un-printed inside of an empty breakfast cereal packet which is exactly the right shade of grey and depth of tone that matches a 'real' Grey Card. It cost me nothing and I could have a new one every two weeks if I needed it. Try it and you will not have to search and buy one.
 

DREW WILEY

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I once took a huge stack of "gray cards" of various brands to my worksite industrial spectrophotometer. Not one of them was even within 3% of 18%, some as far off as 15%, not one was actual neutral gray, and even those within the same brand differed from one another. Kodak ones were among the worst. At the glacial rate camera stores sold those, I'm surprised there wasn't moss growing on some of them. I ended up formulating a quart of true 18% paint, consistent in neutrality clear across the board all the way from one step into UV clear up into one step of IR. It was quite a chore, but otherwise a fun rainy day project.

What was spot on in terms of both gray scale neutrality and true 18% reflectance was the middle gray patch of my McBeth Color Checker Chart, which is keep clean and unfaded. And more recently, some of the best collapsible gray/white discs intended for digital camera calibration are excellent; certainly not all - you get what you pay for!

Does it make a difference? Undoubtedly in color photography. Don't waste your money on a typical camera store gray card. It's probably going to be either faded or just plain off in terms of quality control. And looking for exactly the right shade of a cereal box interior? Is it the same brand of cereal with a free toy inside the box, in this case, a free disposable camera? Anyone who does serious color photography and printing is way ahead spending the money for something serious, like the McBeth Chart, and at least using that as a reference for the accuracy of your alternative gray cards. It's like me keeping on hand a real machinist's try square to check the reliability of my carpenter's squares, or a machinist level to check my ordinary levels. You can't make assumptions.

The classic McBeth chart is now marketed by Spyder, and possibly rebranded under other names too, and costs around $50. Decent fabric gray/white discs are around the same price in medium sizing. My better collapsible panels are Impact brand. The Manfrotto ones are off about a third a stop, and very slightly greenish - not bad, but not spot on either.

I only use such charts for making master negatives or chromes for darkroom paper to colorhead calibration purposes, or related to critical film tests, both color and b&w, like determining exact filter factors for specific films. In former days, studio photographers would include a gray card in one frame of a series if color neg film was being used, so that the lab doing the printing could adjust their own monitors to that. Nowadays, color film is way more consistent batch to batch, and many commercial applications have gone digital anyway, and can be viewed directly on monitors.

Short story : I totally disagree with Ralph. Printed Kodak gray cards and grayscales are nearly worthless. Their serious calibration items were made in an entirely different manner, and cost hundreds of dollars apiece.
Likewise, we calibrated densitometers themselves using a permanent ceramic standard.
 
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runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

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Every gray card I've used has a matte surface, no shine or glare. For critical color work, I will usually make an exposure with a color chart in the scene, then crop it out. If that is not possible, a follow-up exposure without the chart.
Thanks for your reply. Perhaps "shine" was too strong of a word. The two brands of gray cards I have owned - Delta and Kodak - both have a matt surface, but none-the-less do have some sheen that can be seen at certain angles to the light. For whatever reason, I have noticed if I rotate the gray card in either direction, the meter reading can change significantly (plus-or-minus a full stop). So obviously, for the card to reflect the correct amount of light it, must be held at the correct angle.

Kodak says the card should be positioned at 1/3 of the angle between the camera and the light source. Delta instructions say, for artificial light, aim "halfway between the main light and camera" -- but for daylight they say the card should be "pointing at the camera." In their document "Exposure Metering Compendium" Gossen says,
"In the case of three-dimensional subjects, the gray card is positioned perpendicular to the bisector between the main light source and the camera’s axis within the motif, and metering is conducted with the exposure meter at a right angle to the card. The surface of the gray card must not reflect any glare and must not be shaded by any objects."

I have always been uneasy with the amount of imprecision that is introduced when I have to first guess the angle between the light and camera, and then guess what is one third or one-half of that angle. Which is why I prefer using my incident meters (although holding the incident meter at the correct angle is still important).

What color chart do you use?
 
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runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

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I once took a huge stack of "gray cards" of various brands to my worksite industrial spectrophotometer. Not one of them was even within 3% of 18%, some as far off as 15%, not one was actual neutral gray, and even those within the same brand differed from one another. Kodak ones were among the worst. At the glacial rate camera stores sold those, I'm surprised there wasn't moss growing on some of them. I ended up formulating a quart of true 18% paint, consistent in neutrality clear across the board all the way from one step into UV clear up into one step of IR. It was quite a chore, but otherwise a fun rainy day project.

What was spot on in terms of both gray scale neutrality and true 18% reflectance was the middle gray patch of my McBeth Color Checker Chart, which is keep clean and unfaded. And more recently, some of the best collapsible gray/white discs intended for digital camera calibration are excellent; certainly not all - you get what you pay for!

Does it make a difference? Undoubtedly in color photography. Don't waste your money on a typical camera store gray card. It's probably going to be either faded or just plain off in terms of quality control. And looking for exactly the right shade of a cereal box interior? What kind of joke is that? Is it the same brand of cereal with a free toy inside, in this case a free disposable camera? Anyone who does serious color photography and printing is way ahead spending the money for something serious, like the McBeth Chart, and at least using that as a reference for the accuracy of your alternative gray cards. It's like me keeping on hand a real machinist's try square to check the reliability of my carpenter's squares, or a machinist level to check my ordinary levels. You can't make assumptions.

The classic McBeth chart is now marketed by Spyder, and possibly rebranded under other names too, and costs around $50. Decent fabric gray/white discs are around the same price in medium sizing.
Wow! Thanks for that!
 

MattKing

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The best reason for including a grey card in a photo is that it can serve as a reference that allows one to compare transparencies or negatives against a standard.
So pick one, include it in a scene, bracket some exposures of that scene, pick out the best choice and then use the reading (scanner or enlargement meter) off of the card in that "best choice" as your reference standard.
Be sure to keep using that card, and keep it in as good a condition as you can - they can fade from light exposure and use.
If you want to use the card to aid in metering, you go through a similar bracketing and comparison exercise, except you also note what offset you need to incorporate (if any) between the meter reading off of the card and the exposure setting that gives the best results.
It does, essentially, provide you with an equivalent to an incident meter.
 

Pieter12

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What color chart do you use?
I have a Datacolor Spyder chart. Not cheap. It folds up in a plastic case and has threads for mounting to a stand. There are two chart cards that can be flipped, one has grays on one side, color on the other, the other has color on one side, a gray card on the other.

On commercial shoots that I have been on, both still and motion, a Macbeth color chart was used, pretty much the industry standard for color.

I don't usually include a gray card in a black and white shot since the film is pretty forgiving and I usually just print to my taste, not necessarily to a standard.
 

MattKing

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When using black and white negative film, an included grey card in a reasonably evenly lit scene is a great aid if you use an enlarging meter, and want your first test print to be close to your final result.
 

jeffreyg

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Find a representative gray sample. Go to Home Depot’s paint department where they have free sample paper swatches. Take a few and glue to white poster boards You will have some pocket sized gray cards.
 

DREW WILEY

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Only use paint swatches for crude approximations. Nobody at a Home Cheapo outlet would even understanding the real meaning of neutral gray; can't distinguish it under those hideous store lights anyway. But a true Macbeath chart not only has very precisely density spaced gray patches, truly neutral gray, but also both primary RGB and secondary CMY patches very carefully engineered to be of equal purity and chroma or saturation, along with a number of other very carefully chosen colors. Anyone into advanced color printing in a darkroom soon learns the difference between how something like that saves a lot of time and money, versus the less reliable paint chip route (which is better than nothing, however). There are also metamerism issues with printed paint chips - differences in chroma under different light sources - which the real deal MacBeath Chart has pretty well under control. And remember, colors as we see them in nature don't necessarily behave like artificial dyed or printed substitutes.
And you also need to be aware of the specific spectral response of your own meter or meters too.
 
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