What effing universe is this?

[Don_ih]

The problem I have is that I want everyone to think like me, because I'm always right. It's a completely ludicrous character flaw, I'm very aware of that - but that doesn't make it any easier to accept.

Always being right isn't a flaw, it's a skill

 

[MattKing]

The problem I have is that I want everyone to think like me, because I'm always right. It's a completely ludicrous character flaw, I'm very aware of that - but that doesn't make it any easier to accept.

Another addition to your signature line - don't you think it's getting a bit long?

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Another addition to your signature line - don't you think it's getting a bit long?

Right. My therapist gave me two more that I need to add, I just haven't done it yet.

 

[Huss]

.. What I don't understand or care for much is the absurd thought that something like a Nikon FM is as valuable as the F5. ...

I totally understand what you are saying. But what it comes down to is what people want. The reason an FM is worth as much as an F5 (apparently) is because people want a basic mechanical SLR that is film photography stripped down to the basics, and it gives them that traditional camera look. And there is nothing wrong with that. So even though an F4/F5 heck, F75, is far superior if the goal is to 'get the shot', that is not the goal here.

You can make the same argument for film vs digital... all the same arguments are there.

 

[MattKing]

The F5's value is really only higher if someone has the knowledge and experience to take advantage of its extra features, and an intended use that makes use of them.
In a lot of cases, the users that fit within that group already have a camera that does all or most of what an F5 does - perhaps even an F5.
The increases in price that we are seeing are fueled by new users, or people that are coming back to film after a time away. The things that attract those people aren't found in a camera as large and capable as an F5.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

The F5's value is really only higher if someone has the knowledge and experience to take advantage of its extra features, and an intended use that makes use of them.
In a lot of cases, the users that fit within that group already have a camera that does all or most of what an F5 does - perhaps even an F5.
The increases in price that we are seeing are fueled by new users, or people that are coming back to film after a time away. The things that attract those people aren't found in a camera as large and capable as an F5.

So why is an FM in the same price range as an F2? Can't make the same argument as you can with the F5.

 

[Sirius Glass]

2 years ago Mcdonalds had a 99 cent double cheeseburger on the Dollar menu. Today it's $2.29. What freakin universe is this? For you old enough to remember inflation starting in 1970 you know what's coming. For you that are too young be prepared for a lesson in economics.

That was a special price to attract customers, not a regular item.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The F5's value is really only higher if someone has the knowledge and experience to take advantage of its extra features, and an intended use that makes use of them.
In a lot of cases, the users that fit within that group already have a camera that does all or most of what an F5 does - perhaps even an F5.
The increases in price that we are seeing are fueled by new users, or people that are coming back to film after a time away. The things that attract those people aren't found in a camera as large and capable as an F5.

The F5 is a great camera. It is on the heavy side, so I let others scramble to buy it will buy the lighter F100 at much lower prices.

 

[Huss]

So why is an FM in the same price range as an F2? Can't make the same argument as you can with the F5.

FM is easier to use. It is smaller yet still looks very nice. It is more popular...

 

[MattKing]

So why is an FM in the same price range as an F2? Can't make the same argument as you can with the F5.

Sure can.
An FM is a simpler camera, and much better suited to someone new to (or re-visiting) this stuff. There are many more of them, and they are much more likely to be recommended to someone in the group of people who are increasing these prices.
Back in the day, when I used to sell this sort of stuff new, I would never have recommended a camera with the capabilities and complexities of an F2 to someone new to this, even if the prices were similar. Interchangeable finders for a new user - I don't think so. Particularly given the likelihood that an F2 might have had professional, heavy use.
Again, if you have the experience and knowledge to make use of an F2, you probably have one.

 

[Huss]

Plus my FM (for sale!) and FM2n (maybe for sale!) have meters that work perfectly. My F2As had to have the DP12 head repaired by Sover - ring resistor failure. My F2a (or whatever the basic metered head is) has an inaccurate meter. I have not bothered to get it repaired, because the DP12 is much better.
So with the FM, you are getting (nearly always) a body with a meter that works correctly.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Y'all are wrong and I am right.

 

[MattKing]

Speaking more generally, I'd suggest that the difficulty a lot of us have in understanding the way that prices and popularity change is that it is hard to put ourselves in the shoes of those who are causing the change. Particularly since we are unlikely to reference many of the same sources of information that many of those people refer to.
One of the skills I had to develop way back in the day when I worked in retail was to do just that - understand where my customers were coming from.
It actually surprises me that Christopher is so surprised at some of these prices, given that he seems to look at a lot of internet resources, and internet resources are the source of a lot of the fuel that is feeding this price fire.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

It actually surprises me that Christopher is so surprised at some of these prices, given that he seems to look at a lot of internet resources, and internet resources are the source of a lot of the fuel that is feeding this price fire.

Back in 2015 I thought I was going to get out of photography, so I sold my entire collection, and what I didn't sell I brought to Valerie to give to her students. I brought her a truck bed full of stuff. When we moved into the RV in March of 2016 I didn't have anything but a D7200 I think. After a while, I even sold that and became completely cameraless for 2 years or so. In 2018 my sister in law was cleaning out a drawer and found her old D700 that she shot weddings with and handed it down to me. Last year in 2020 I briefly caught the bug again and thats when I bought the F5 and F100. But it wasn't until January of this year that I decided to make photography my resolution and goal for this year. So really, up until the last few months I wasn't even looking at cameras or photography stuff as I was immersed in other hobbies. I certainly hadn't looked up a Nikon FM since I bought mine for $40 way back in 2011.

 

[Huss]

So it seems to me your complaint is prices are not where you want them to be.

 

[Down Under]

Cameras whether digital or film sell for what buyers will pay to buy them. Often the retail dealers manipulate the demand and prices go up. It has always been that way. Yes, A&W Drive In burgers (in the pre-McDonalds age in eastern Canada) were 35 cents (in Canada) in 1966 but I was earning C$35.00 a week back then and couldn't afford many of them.

Example(s). A few months ago a dealer in Melbourne (one of very few I trust and have a high regard for) had a dual stroke M3 with a 50/2 Summicron for A$1950, cosmetically good but seemingly well used. I saw the listing on his web site and made plans to go into the city to check it out, but delayed. It sold in three days (I was surprised it lasted so long). The buyer played with it for a month and then put it on Ebay for A$3000. It is no longer listed so we must assume it sold. As a local saying goes, he snared a pigeon...

My two D700s are worth maybe (if I snare a pigeon or two) five hundred South Pacific pesos at most but I enjoy using them and I will keep them. Ditto my D800 which had 1800 actuations when I bought it in 2019. The latter may well be my last digital camera, unless a new Nikon pops up in my mate's shop and I get gear hungry. I paid current shop prices for all this gear. Mostly used Nikon D series lenses that cost me a bit more than the prices but after dropping a bit in 2018 are now climbing in value. I will be keeping them all so it doesn't matter to me. In the mid 2000s I bought new Contax Zeiss G lenses at their top prices but I had credit cards then and I wasn't bothered with maxing them out. Now I am retired and much, much more sensible (I have only one CC with a limit of $5000).

Gear heads will always complain when prices are higher than they were in say 2010, but how many cameras does one need anyway? I had up to 60 at one time but have now reduced the arsenal to just under 20 and even then most of my little beauties sit on a shelf and almost never get used. I was happier in the 70s and 80s with one camera and three lenses. Film was almost as cheap as chips then, even Kodachrome film cost A$5 with processing included and I shot heaps and heaps of beaut color slides.

All this is about perceptions. Needs versus wants. So a Nikon Fwhatever cost $100 twenty years ago but the sellers now want $500 for it, hoo! Is the camera worth buying? If so, remember your five bills now are buying less than they did in 1980 but are easier to earn. The gentleman from Texas who lives on a boat has I reckon an enviable life. How many cameras can one keep on a sail boat anyway? How many enlargers do you have in the main cabin? I am not being sarcastic here, but trying to make 'comparisons'. You are a lucky boy and I hope (in fact I am quite sure) you appreciate it as well as enjoy it.

Sail on, man. And keep posting when the sea winds are down. You have revitalised this web site with your posts and I am greatly enjoying it...

 

[grat]

Example(s). A few months ago a dealer in Melbourne (one of very few I trust and have a high regard for) had a dual stroke M3 with a 50/2 Summicron for A$1950, cosmetically good but apparently somewhat overused. I saw the listing on his web site and intended to go into the city to check it out, but delayed. It sold in three days (it surprised me that it lasted so long). The buyer played with it for a month and then put it on Ebay - for A$3000. It is no longer listed so we must assume it sold. As a local saying goes, he saw someone coming...

I recently picked up a just-serviced Konica III-A rangefinder with a 48mm f/2 for about $150 USD (shipped halfway around the world). It's in perfect working order, and by all accounts, could give said M3 a run for it's money in most categories. Anything with a Leica or Contax badge is getting insane.

 

[mawz]

So why is an FM in the same price range as an F2? Can't make the same argument as you can with the F5.

FM's are AI, and the comparable priced F2's generally are the non-AI version. A DP-11 equipped F2a generally runs at least 50% more than an FM, and a DP-12 equipped F2as is even more expensive.

 

[Wallendo]

In many cases, more advanced cameras have features that few users actually need or want.
A have a DSLR with a manual that goes on for hundreds of pages. I shoot 95% of my images with it in RAW mode with Aperture Priority. The "neat" features Sony added are almost never used. I have not updated this camera which is now 7 years old or so is because I don't need (or want) any of the new features added over the last 7 years. (Actually, I would like a full-frame camera so that my A-mount lenses look the same whether shot on film or digital, but don't find that upgrade worth the price).

I frequently wonder if I should pick up the latest and greatest film cameras, but frequently ask myself, "Does this camera really add a feature I need?". The answer is generally "no".

Outside of collectors and a handful of users who need advanced features, there isn't really a great demand for cameras with bloated features.

There is also the social media effect. Use of a camera by an influencer can drive up prices. A recommendation by a blogger can drive prices upward

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

One reason the F5 is priced as low as it is (relatively speaking) is that for people who need the features the F5 offers, those features are better executed on digital cameras (faster FPS, the ability to change ISO between individual shots, the ability to change color styles between shots, etc). The target market for it isn't there any more.

 

[gone]

These price increases are probably a matter of the human population increasing, coupled w/ the amount of film cameras decreasing. At some point the well is gonna run dry folks. There is only a finite amount of used gear, and every day that number gets smaller and smaller.

 

[Huss]

These price increases are probably a matter of the human population increasing, coupled w/ the amount of film cameras decreasing. At some point the well is gonna run dry folks. There is only a finite amount of used gear, and every day that number gets smaller and smaller.

If that was the case ALL film gear would be going up in price.

It is not. Just the select trendy stuff.

 

[Huss]

Asking $1100 for a broken Bessa R3A. But it had a recent CLA!

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1696590/0?keyword=r3a#15567444

 

[cooltouch]

I got back into analog photography back in 2009, which it seems was close to the nadir with respect to film gear prices. Over the next few years, I went on something of a buying spree, to the point where I've become much more selective now when I'm shopping for new used gear. I'm glad I made the purchases when I did. Some of them were unbelievable even for the time -- like a Bronica ETRSi with lens, prism finder and two backs for $129. The amazing thing about that purchase was it was an eBay auction and I was the only bidder! And it was actually in good shape, although one of the backs was pretty well trashed.

One of the few Nikons I don't own is an FM -- or an FM2/FM2n. I've just always preferred the FE -- I like match-needle metering. Used to be able to pick up FEs for $50 or less all day long. I haven't checked FE prices lately, but I'll warrant they're higher now. I own a couple of F2s, one black, one chrome, the latter which I've owned for over 30 years. I've just always liked them more than the FM, weight not being a big factor with me.

 

[BradS]

I don't think that the sound the shutter makes has any significant effect on the negatives or the resulting prints...at least I've never noticed any....but maybe that's the secret behind the Leica ?