Very positive news from Kodak: Strong increasing demand - new investment

[Agulliver]

As far as I am aware, Kodak were using Tetenal right up until the bankruptcy. That means that Kodak will have had to arrange a new supply chain, and this takes time. It's also likely that there were residual stocks of Tetenal-manufactured chemicals in the warehouses of retailers and that it's taken some time for the stock levels to vanish. If Kodak has found new chemical suppliers it could still take some time before the supply chain is re-established and as reliable as it once was.

As for Color Plus pricings, in the UK it can be had for £3 for a 36 exposure cassette from some online retailers. My local camera shop has it at £5 and says that they're not actually making much money from it....but they sell hundreds of rolls, not tens of thousands. It is likely they get less advantageous deals from suppliers than the big online retailers. They don't stock much Gold 200 as their price is £7.99, again they assure me they're not making much profit on it. In general, Gold 200 is much more expensive here than in the USA...possibly because availability of Color Plus affects sales of Gold.

 

[Nodda Duma]

I wouldn't call those "good scanners".

Nikon coolscan, minolta Dimage scanners, Pakon, and the canon scanners come to mind. Not those.

If you’re shopping for specific brands, I can’t help you. If you’re in fact looking for a modern, good quality scanner then I suggest you set aside old biases and take a look at actual results.

I didn’t make my suggestion lightly. Last year I set aside my own preconceived notions and found a satisfactory solution for scanning 35mm. As a large format shooter, every 35mm scanner out there disappoints me..including those you listed above (first-hand experience). The Pacific Imaging XA / XAs happens to disappoint just a little less.

 

[Henning Serger]

This is exciting news but somehow I can't understand how this could happen. The same Kodak that 10 or 15 years ago struggled because their production facilities were WAY too big, are now suffering because of lack of production infrastructure...

Is this "new production infrastructure" specifically for RA4 paper production?

No, absolutely not.
As I have already said: Please have a look at my original post: The topic here is film! Not RA-4 paper. One forum member here (which is not using RA-4 sheets in his darkroom by himself, and therefore is not affected by this topic) is permanently ignoring that and artificially blowing up this non-topic .

Back to the original topic and your first question:
You have to differentiate two main production steps: 1) Emulsion making and coating 2) Film converting.
In emulsion making and coating we don't have any bottle necks. The capacity there is still huge and with the global overall capacity more than a billion rolls p.a. could be produced.
Where most of the downscaling has happened in the years of market decline was film converting: Both Kodak and Fujifilm have had many converting lines running on parallel in former times.
Lots of these lines were then closed (downscaling, less capacity, adaption to lower market demand).
And exactly there is now the current bottleneck:
Demand has increased so much (and unexpectedly fast) lately that the current converting capacity is not sufficient anymore to keep up with the current, significantly increased demand.
Therefore new, additional converting capacities have to be installed. That is not easy and takes time.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Having a bottleneck and sorting it out is a great problem to have in this day and age!

 

[dutchsteammachine]

Evidently only Kodak was caught not prepared: all other firms (Ilford, Foma etc...) don't have such problems.
We are still paying for Kodak problems from the past (wrong decisions etc...) and this is unacceptable from a consumer point of view.

Colour has increased exponentially more than b/w, so duh?

 

[Kino]

Evidently only Kodak was caught not prepared: all other firms (Ilford, Foma etc...) don't have such problems.
We are still paying for Kodak problems from the past (wrong decisions etc...) and this is unacceptable from a consumer point of view.

I suggest you never buy another roll of Kodak.
That will show them...

 

[mshchem]

I suggest you never buy another roll of Kodak.
That will show them...

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I shoot only b&w. Why should I pay more a b&w product (film and chemical)? To feed color film?
Today color is mostly shot on digital, Kodak should raise the prices only on color films...

I think from what I've gathered that colour film sales may represent a much higher proportion of the market of total film sales than what is represented here on Photrio.

 

[MattKing]

So raising b&w film prices will yield proportionally much less income than raising colour films, right?
So why ALL film prices are reaised?

Because when Eastman Kodak is making black and white film, they aren't able to make colour film or motion picture film. The manufacturing processes aren't really able to run in parallel.
Why would they increase prices more to the much greater number of customers that use colour film in order to subsidize the smaller number of customers who use black and white?

 

[Peter Schrager]

Seems like adox cant keep up with demand
Foma papers are sometimes out of stock
What hasn't gone up in price?? Has anyone gone to the supermarket lately??
Anyone here use art supplies? People pay what the market will accept
I'm thankful that ilford and Kodak are still producing...

 

[radiant]

If Kodak is doing all this, the investments ect..., why Fotoimpex and practically all european photo distributors are out of Xtol and D76?
Fotoimpex expects to have Xtol back in 2020!!
What's happening precisely?

Fotoimpex is not out of stock of xtol https://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/fotochemie/kodak-xtol-zum-ansatz-von-5000-ml.html?cache=1575267304 - neither is out of stock from another shop I checked.

 

[Agulliver]

Kodak and Fuji experienced a wholly unexpected leap in colour film sales during 2019. This has been widely reported by Henning, and borne out by people such as myself talking with local retailers. In order to match demand, Kodak specifically need to invest lots of money *now* in order to be in a position to increase production of all film types later in 2020. Despite the increase in sales, KA lost millions last year.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that all adds up to a price increase.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Pricing in general seems to have other factors at play. Retailers in the UK can sometimes offer the same product at significantly different prices, and I've noticed that Fotoimpex seems more competitive on certain items compared to UK suppliers, e.g XTOL. ILFORD tends to be reasonable value here though.

 

[brbo]

Because raising prices in b&w compartment, being much smaller, isn't going to yield a big income increase, whilst is going to divert potential business to other b&w manufacturer...

So if there are so few customers of b&w Kodak film and then those flee to other b&w manufacturers it won't matter much on Kodak's bottom line. Happy?

Stop finding a reason (there isn't one, you know) that b&w film doesn't need converting (which is apparently what Kodak is mostly investing in).

 

[brbo]

If buying Kodak film is "justifying Kodak management"... OK.

I use 90% color film so buying Ilford, Adox and other noble brands is not an option. And Fuji's prices are even higher than Kodak's here.

 

[Henning Serger]

Evidently only Kodak was caught not prepared: all other firms (Ilford, Foma etc...) don't have such problems.

That is wrong.
Fujifilm also has significant backorders.
Both Kodak and Fujifilm face the challenge that the demand for colour film has increased in a quite short time frame / very fast and with unexpectedly high growth rates.
The demand for both BW film and colour film is increasing, but the increase for colour is much higher in comparison.
The "bottom building" phase of the film market was quite short. After this short phase a new, positive market dynamic started. None of the film manufacturers expected the power and speed of this development.
As I have explained in my other postings: We currently have two-digit millions ( = much more than 10 millions) colour films on backorder globally.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[radiant]

Alessandro Serrao, please stop spreading mis-information. We can easily read between the lines already, so no need to come up with "information" which is not true because of that.

 

[Henning Serger]

Today color is mostly shot on digital, Kodak should raise the prices only on color films...

Both parts of your sentence are wrong:
1) The film revival in colour film is huge, see my original posting and my posting above.
2) the price increase is necessary both in colour and BW, and all manufacturers are doing it, not only Kodak. Because it is needed!
It is needed, because
- lots of raw materials have increased in price, e.g. some parts for 35mm cassettes are 10x higher in price than some years ago
- because of increased demand new production capacity investments are necessary (see original post of this thread)
- new highly skilled employees have to be trained and educated
- the former price level was too low.

You should also have a look at this presentation of the ADOX CEO, in which he discusses also that topic in detail:


Best regards,
Henning

 

[Agulliver]

Allesandro, please stop talking rubbish. Foma put up their prices most years around April, at the same time as the annual Ilford price increase. Fuji aren't exiting the film market, they had to streamline their product line in the lean years and are now facing exactly the same dilemma as Kodak....and have already brought back ACROS and will be re-introducing a colour film next year from what Henning says. The issues with bulk film have also been explained.

Please stop spreading mis-information. Please try to calm down and stop these angry posts. It does nobody any good. Your own health won't benefit from all this anger.

Most of us want Kodak to continue to manufacture camera films, and Henning has explained perfectly adequately why prices need to go up in the short term so that we can continue to enjoy availability of film in the long term.

 

[Henning Serger]

Well, Foma prices aren't high, for example, and are reasonable.

Foma is extremely cheap. Because their quality level and QC is much, much lower compared to Kodak, Fujifilm and Ilford.
Foma can only make very simple one-layer films. Kodak, Fujifilm and Ilford offer high-tech multi-layer BW emulsions.
A Fomapan 100 cannot compete at all against a T-Max 100, Delta 100, Acros, ADOX Silvermax or FP4+, and a Fomapan 400 cannot compete at all against a Kodak T-Max 400, Delta 400 etc.
If I compare TMY-2 to Fomapan 400, there are worlds between them in picture quality. I go for TMY-2 because the difference is so big.
I have had very often QC issues with Foma products.
You get what you pay for.

You said film cassette price is 10x higher than in the past.

That is a lie. I have written that parts of 35mm cassettes have gone up in price so high.
Lots of other raw materials are affected by significant price increases, too.

Regarding Fuji even higher prices: it's evident Fuji wants to abandon direct commitment to film.

That is nonsense!
Fujifilm made a very clear public statement last Photokina that they remain committed to film production. I have posted the original document here several times.
Almost half of their huge booth at Photokina last year was dedicated to their silver-halide photo products. No other film manufacturer had such big presentation there.
They have started online marketing for film again, re-introduced new re-designed 3 packs for C200 and X-Tra 400 in NA market, re-introduced Acros, and probably will bring another colour film back next year.
Fujifilm is making more than a billion $ revenue with their silver halide products. That is much more than all other film / photo paper manufacturers make combined!
And it is about double of their revenue of digital imaging products.

You have made your opinion very clear. You don't like Kodak. You are free to do that. No one is forcing you to use Kodak products. If you are happy with Foma, fine, use them.
But please stop spreading permanently misinformation here. Thanks.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Agulliver]

Perhaps it is simply time we stopped feeding the troll....

 

[Prest_400]

As I have explained in my other postings: We currently have two-digit millions ( = much more than 10 millions) colour films on backorder globally.

Best regards,
Henning

Wow, if assuming a normal master roll could output 50000 35mm rolls, which is a number I vaguely recall from discussions around here and PE; it is a lot. Then believable the machines are running at a good rate.
Quite interesting compared to the 2013? situation when Eastman Kodak had the moment when they thought about shutting down (what Jeff Clarke mentions in an interview).

About the bulk roll pricing, there was a discussion around here (other thread?) where rolling would have to be made in another line, thus the $.

I wonder what Kodak did with many of the older lines. 220 for example... perhaps could be converted to 120 spooling. Anyhow and having seen ADOX's insights, film mfg is quite an incredibly complex operation.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

That is wrong...

The poster you quoted is almost always wrong. And gratuitously negative. I've added him to my ignore list, and suggest others add him to theirs as well.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Alessandro Serrao, please stop spreading mis-information. We can easily read between the lines already, so no need to come up with "information" which is not true because of that.

Allesandro, please stop talking rubbish. Foma put up their prices most years around April, at the same time as the annual Ilford price increase. Fuji aren't exiting the film market, they had to streamline their product line in the lean years and are now facing exactly the same dilemma as Kodak....and have already brought back ACROS and will be re-introducing a colour film next year from what Henning says. The issues with bulk film have also been explained.

Please stop spreading mis-information. Please try to calm down and stop these angry posts. It does nobody any good. Your own health won't benefit from all this anger.

Most of us want Kodak to continue to manufacture camera films, and Henning has explained perfectly adequately why prices need to go up in the short term so that we can continue to enjoy availability of film in the long term.

Perhaps it is simply time we stopped feeding the troll....

The poster you quoted is almost always wrong. And gratuitously negative. I've added him to my ignore list, and suggest others add him to theirs as well.

I too have followed Sal's recommendation.

 

[removedacct1]

Well, Foma prices aren't high, for example, and are reasonable.

So please buy Foma products and stop whining about what Kodak is doing. You obviously don't like what Kodak has to offer these days, so kindly opt out of this discussion if all you have to say is negative and speculative.