Very positive news from Kodak: Strong increasing demand - new investment

[JensH]

Yes, yes, yes.

View attachment 234949
I normally don't get excited about a film but the Reala was no ordinary film.
It was the elixir of film emulsions.
It was the film equivalent to nectar of the gods.
I even did a redesigned of the Reala box.
Did I say I like Reala.

Well, Reala for me, too.
It's a good idea to bring back Reala!
I will use it!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

HIE, please.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Fuji to bring a new Color film? Provia 400X would be beautiful....

That's what I was hoping for, when the rumor of a "new" color Fuji film was mentioned in the original post. A fast E-6 film is the glaring "hole" in the market.

 

[Helge]

What we really desperately need and need investment from the major players in yesterday, not in a year, is an affordable (as in $300 max) AND excellent (not that Scanza con shit) scanner.
It is completely technically and economically possible and has been so for years, everybody knows this.
Still people keep faffing around with various piddly holders and other ineffectual trivialities.
Even a half decent macro lens with shiftable holder or other film feeder to mount on the omnipresent smartphone, would produce results better and faster than all of the presently sold legacy scanners

Same goes for real wet printing machines for RA4 and B&W. But that I'll grant is a taller order.

 

[Henning Serger]

Interesting information, thanks for posting. The huge demand for ColorPlus 200 film is IMHO a clear indication that people need reasonably priced film. Ektar and the Portra films are fine, but they get expensive if you shoot a fair amount of film, E6 films even more so.

Well, that the demand for ColorPlus (and also for Fujifilm C200, Fuji's most popular film) is so strong is also due to the fact that lots of young photographers start using film, and for a beginner in his 'learning phase' it makes of course lots of sense to use a cheaper amateur film. No need for highest-quality professional film in that situation.
Another important factor is that film demand is also significantly increasing in lots of emerging markets, e.g. in Asian countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia. In these economies income is much lower and budgets for photography are of course on a much lower level, too. Therefore film shooters in these countries use mainly the cheaper amateur films.

And costs of professional negative film vs. professional transparency film: The costs per shot / final picture are in most cases lower with E6, because after processing you already have a finished picture in perfect quality. No further costs needed. But with color negative film you always need another step after processing: printing or scanning. And both do cost if you want high quality. I shoot really a lot of color film beside my BW work. And one of the several reasons why I shoot much more colour reversal film than colour negative film is the fact that I have lower overall costs with colour reversal (E6).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

I pray this is Reala.

Please consider that - as I have written - so far there is no official confirmation (yet) of this color film being reintroduced.
Well, Reala would of course be excellent. Such an outstanding film! One of best CN films ever made.
But in the current situation it would be the "third step before the first step".
I think much more realistic and reasonable in the short term is the following scenario: Fujifilm is offering its "Industrial 100" (which is the Fujicolor 100 in a different, simpler Japan-only box) in Japan. Looks like freshly produced film, as the guarantee dates are very long.
This Fujicolor 100 emulsion has excellent quality. It is a kind of "hidden pearl" on the film market. Giving this existing film a new international packaging (box), and an international name, and start distributing it globally, need relatively low investments and can be done relatively fast.
If I would be responsible for film at Fujifilm, that would be the very first step I would make in improving the film portfolio after the Acros II introduction. Further steps would follow after that.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Interesting thought. I wonder what the evidence is for the economically viable demand for a new film camera or even for a resurrection of an old film camera, assuming of course that this would be cheaper and easier which may not be the case? Over to you Henning. What is the evidence and what have you heard from any camera manufacturer, if anything?
pentaxuser

I've done a lot of market research concerning that topic. And I have also talked to camera manufacturers. I could write quite a lot about that topic....but I will not do it in this thread .
Because it is a completely different topic. Should be discussed separately in a different thread.
Same is valid for the topic scanners, which was mentioned by another member.
Please let's keep on track here with the original topic: film, film demand, improving of production capacity.

Thanks and best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

I'm curious--I haven't seen any official statements regarding Ektachrome--did sales meet their expectations, and assuming that there was a drop from the peak at release time, do they see that post release level as something that can justify continued manufacture or even expansion?

(I assume that the project to make E100 for 120 is a tacit admission that demand justifies continued development, I'd just love to hear anything specific.)

Concerning Ektachrome: KA told me sales have surpassed their expectations. It has been a success. That is the reason why they are now working on 120 and 4x5" formats as well.
I have seen E100 sales numbers from labs and big online distributors, and I was positively surprised about the volume.
And it looks like E100 introduction has not negatively affected Fujichrome sales so far: The market data I have at least show stable to slightly increasing Fujichrome film demand. So it seems that former Ektachrome users, who have not switched to Fujichrome after 2012, are using Ektachrome again. And new users starting in film and trying their first reversal film are using Ektachrome, too.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[pentaxuser]

I've done a lot of market research concerning that topic. And I have also talked to camera manufacturers. I could write quite a lot about that topic....but I will not do it in this thread .
Because it is a completely different topic. Should be discussed separately in a different thread.
Same is valid for the topic scanners, which was mentioned by another member.
Please let's keep on track here with the original topic: film, film demand, improving of production capacity.

Thanks and best regards,
Henning

I agree and you are right.Given that you have done a lot of market research, can we expect to see a thread by you on this subject soon?

Thanks

pentaxuser.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Henning,

Do you have any idea of the market popularity for optically printed RA-4 products? - I've just started doing this again on a small scale (Jobo) and think it is something I'll continue with, but the only available cut sheet paper at the moment is Fuji Crystal Archive. Kodak has previously made their 'Supra Endura' paper available in sheet sizes, but that product has been discontinued for a long time.

 

[pentaxuser]

Henning,

Do you have any idea of the market popularity for optically printed RA-4 products? - I've just started doing this again on a small scale (Jobo) and think it is something I'll continue with, but the only available cut sheet paper at the moment is Fuji Crystal Archive. Kodak has previously made their 'Supra Endura' paper available in sheet sizes, but that product has been discontinued for a long time.

Good question Tom. You'd hope that with improving fortunes Kodak might be reviewing the restart of producing cut sheets again and down to 5x7 which surely is a popular size as is the case, I assume, with b&w paper. This change has to improve Kodak RA4 paper demand surely. I imagine the same move in the case of b&w paper manufacturers suddenly stopping sales of cut sheets would harm those manufacturers business?

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Good question Tom. You'd hope that with improving fortunes Kodak might be reviewing the restart of producing cut sheets again and down to 5x7 which surely is a popular size as is the case, I assume, with b&w paper. This change has to improve Kodak RA4 paper demand surely. I imagine the same move in the case of b&w paper manufacturers suddenly stopping sales of cut sheets would harm those manufacturers business?

pentaxuser

I'm guessing that cut sheet RA-4 is a very small market? It took me a while to get going again with the filtration but I seem to have got the hang of it now. I've exposed a few rolls of the Fuji Pro 400H film to try printing on the Fuji paper. Most of my colour negative stock is Kodak though, and the big yellow company has the range in terms of C-41 products at the moment.

 

[Henning Serger]

I agree and you are right.Given that you have done a lot of market research, can we expect to see a thread by you on this subject soon?
Thanks
pentaxuser.

Well, not soon, not before Christmas . Because it is a bigger topic, and I expect lots of questions. And answering all them takes lots of time. I have currently a big backlog with my own BW prints in the darkroom. And spending my very rare leisure time in my darkroom making prints is much, much more fun and enjoyable than spending time in a photo forum, at least for me .

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning,

Do you have any idea of the market popularity for optically printed RA-4 products? - I've just started doing this again on a small scale (Jobo) and think it is something I'll continue with, but the only available cut sheet paper at the moment is Fuji Crystal Archive. Kodak has previously made their 'Supra Endura' paper available in sheet sizes, but that product has been discontinued for a long time.

Tom,
the global RA-4 paper market in general is huge: about 250-300 million square meters are currently produced p.a.. Fujifilm is by far the biggest player in this field. They have three RA-4 silver-halide paper factories: one in Japan, one in the US, one in the Netherlands. Kodak Alaris is on second position, Lucky on third.
Almost all of the production is used by professional labs: By the big mass volumes labs which have a yearly output of billions of prints each year, and by the smaller minilabs (the big mass volume labs in Europe are Cewe, Fuji Eurocolor, Whitewall, allcop, Pixelnet, dplab).
Cut sheet paper for enthusiast home darkroom users is a very small niche market. The cutting and converting is often done by separate companies who can do that in small volumes efficiently (like ADOX).
I have discussed that topic recently with KA Germany. The situation at KA concerning RA-4 paper shipment is currently a bit complex and unsatiesfying. I cannot go into further detail here because of a NDA. They are aware of the demand from smaller minilabs and enthusiasts and try to solve the current problems.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, not soon, not before Christmas .

Best regards,
Henning

Thanks and no problem. It is not as if it is an urgent problem with film cameras i.e. in a matter of weeks they will not all disappear from the market place

pentaxuser

 

[destroya]

great news! thanks for the insight. hoping for a nice holiday announcement

john

 

[pentaxuser]

Cut sheet paper for enthusiast home darkroom users is a very small niche market. The cutting and converting is often done by separate companies who can do that in small volumes efficiently (like ADOX).
Henning

Henning, I wasn't clear if KA is looking at this cut sheet problem or not. It may not be something that you have asked a question of KA on. Can you clarify this? Is there something about KA's set-up that precludes it from offering the same cut sheet facility as Fuji does. Has it scrapped it's cut sheet machinery so needs to outsource this process assuming it is actually reviewing whether it wants to offer cut sheets to users

I hope that some of my questions at least will not break any NDA agreement you have signed with KA. The problem with any NDA that companies require any journalist like yourself to sign is that if all you can do is draw our attention to the NDA it can make questioners draw their own and possibly wrong conclusions about what position KA is adopting towards a cut sheet service.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, when Kodak stopped supplying cut sheets all together, volumes were so low that they were outsourcing the cutting and wrapping and boxing to a single individual working out of essentially a garage sized area.
He decided to retire, and analysis indicated that the volumes didn't make it economically viable to find a replacement.

 

[pentaxuser]

As I understand it, when Kodak stopped supplying cut sheets all together, volumes were so low that they were outsourcing the cutting and wrapping and boxing to a single individual working out of essentially a garage sized area.
He decided to retire, and analysis indicated that the volumes didn't make it economically viable to find a replacement.

Thanks Matt This has reminded me that what you say above you said before and I had forgotten So we may not know if Kodak/KA scrapped the cutting machinery or it simply lies idle. Having lost "the man in the garage" to retirement, Kodak/KA may be looking for an alternative to the man in the garage but hasn't found him yet nor has it found alternative sources for cutting such as possibly Adox or Ilford

However it still raises the question of : Is it still looking for alternative sources for cutting and if not how does it gauge the current demand for cut sheets to re-assess the viability as all customers only appear to want to buy bulk rolls?. It tends to become like the joke.

I: "My dog never eats meat" You: "That's a very unusual dog. I wonder why he doesn't eat meat?" I: "I never give him any"

Still leaves the question of why Fuji continued to bother to supply cut sheets in the face what were the economics of cutting sheets.

pentaxuser

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, I wasn't clear if KA is looking at this cut sheet problem or not. It may not be something that you have asked a question of KA on. Can you clarify this?

I have discussed the problem of availability of Kodak paper for smaller labs and home users with KA Germany. They are aware of it. They want progress. There is demand in Germany for it, too. I personally also know several labs who want Kodak paper again.
As already explained above: The situation is a bit complex and technical details aren't a topic for a public forum. Sorry.

The problem with any NDA that companies require any journalist like yourself to sign is that if all you can do is draw our attention to the NDA ........

I am not a journalist. I do write for German film photography magazine PhotoKlassik, but that is enthusiasm, passion and support for our readers. That is not my daily job at all.
My profession is running my own two companies in the investment and technology / economic research field. The latter includes research and analysis in the photo industry.
Furthermore I am running an independent photography test lab. But that is also - like writing - a non-profit activity purely motivated by my passion for photography.

One comment in general:
Here on photrio unfortunately too much valuable time is often wasted in discussions on (often tiny) details. It would be much, much better both for the photographers / forum members and the manufacturers if the time instead would be used more for taking photographs on film and making prints in the darkroom
(My personal opinion: Making photographs is much more enjoyable than talking about it ).
Increasing demand and paying fair / sustainable prices is by far the best method to support our manufacturers, to overcome current supply bottlenecks by surpassing the needed minimum production volume and to even make new products possible again in the mid and long term.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[MattKing]

With one possible exception, KA no longer owns the factories where colour paper is made, much less the machinery to cut sheets.
Although arguably they may still have the leasehold interest in the Carestream plant that Eastman Kodak apparently had at the time of the bankruptcy.
Until a very recent discontinuation Fuji made and sold (in the Japanese market only) cut sheet black and white darkroom paper. Perhaps the cutting machinery they used for that was the machinery that they use for colour paper.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks both

Henning I used the word journalist simply to describe you as a person who appears to have access to information about film companies and then informs Photrio and possibly other interested publications. As far as you General Comment is concerned it came across to me as an indirect way to say I need to stop asking questions and get on with doing what we should be doing on Photrio which is taking photographs and stop bothering with questions.

If that is the case then I disagree. As a forum each and every member deserves to be able to ask reasonable questions and I believe my questions come into that category. My questions may be troublesome and difficult to answer but I believe these are questions to which there are reasonable answers. Some of the answers you may not possess and I understand this. This is no disgrace. Each of us should be prepared to say when we don't know the answer or qualify answers as being the best guess given what we do know to be fact. However unless constrained by legal agreement I feel it is the responsibility of each forum member to act in the interests of other forum members by searching for and then giving to others all the information that each of us possesses

Matt Your answer clears up the ownership aspect of the cutting machinery

As things stand on Kodak cut sheets I still see no reason to believe the situation is likely to be any different from what it is now. We simply do not know enough of the answers to even begin to make an attempt at an answer on the future of cut sheets

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Perhaps the cutting machinery they used for that was the machinery that they use for colour paper.

The Fuji paper I have is supposedly 'Made in UK' which I take to mean coated in Fuji's Netherlands plant and cut into sheets by Harman.

 

[Henning Serger]

If that is the case then I disagree......
pentaxuser

No, that is not the case. My comment was indeed a general one (therefore I have written "general" in my posting), and not focussed on a special person.
My opinion is simply that our hobby is much more enjoyable if we focus on the photography itself and not so much on some technical side issues.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

The Fuji paper I have is supposedly 'Made in UK' which I take to mean coated in Fuji's Netherlands plant and cut into sheets by Harman.

Yes, and there have been (and are) at least another three converting facilities / manufacturers in Europe cutting and packaging Fujifilm RA-4 paper.

Best regards,
Henning