Variables for warmtone papers

[Ryuji]

What's the pH of modified D-72 you used? Ansco 135 is not that different from D-72 except for difference in developer concentration and lower pH. Unless you reduced molar amount of potassium carbonate from that of sodium carbonate, the pH of your D-72 is quite a bit higher than the original D-72, increasing the difference.

Also, sulfur toners and gold toners work on very different chemical mechanisms and you can't take gold results to relate to my statements on sulfur and selenium toners.

 

[don sigl]

Michel:
Variations in developer are usually subtle, but for some image/paper combinations, can make a difference. Its all in the effect you are looking for. I do notice that Amidol with bromide papers will produce very rich blacks. I've used it with Forte bromofort and got excellent results. It is also excellent with Azo type papers. I have noticed that certain warm tone developers like the defender portrait formula will maintain more subtle gradations in the higher values, (although the green caste effect seems to be more pronounced on some papers).

For me, toning is a requirement. Not only for archival reasons, but color control and increase in dmax. In my experience, Nelsons maintains some of the characteristics of selenium and gold toners in that it will increase dmax. However, it will effect highlight density less than selenium. You also have the ability to cover a wide range of warm coloration with it. With most papers, the initial effect of the toner (about 30 seconds to 1 minute), will produce a cooler affect, while increasing dmax and contrast. After a while, the print will begin to warm up. It is probably a lot more work to use Nelsons as a gold toner, but it is possible.

Anyway,the effect of the illustration was to point out that this particular warm toner acts differently than typical sulphide toners. The bleaching that can be experienced with other warm toners is much less prevalent with Nelsons. Therfore, the recommendation that warm tone developers should be avoided, is not necessary.
However, in general, sulphide toners will decrease the dmax in a print. The usual recommendation is to print the image down before toning. But, using a neutral or cooler developer may or may not help minimize the bleaching effect. I have not tested this.

The biggest difference you will see with toning in Nelsons is changes in image color. The toner reacts differently to different papers. I happen to like the Forte, but I have used it with Ilford and Agfa papers as well. Kentmere fine art seems to be impervious to Nelsons. The affect of the gold can be seen, but the paper will not take on a warm tone. I tried it once. I also toned Forte PWT at the same time, the Nelsons was getting close to exhaustion, but the Forte toned in about 12 minutes. The Kentmere had not toned after 30 minutes. I stopped there.

 

[don sigl]

What's the pH of modified D-72 you used? Ansco 135 is not that different from D-72 except for difference in developer concentration and lower pH. Unless you reduced molar amount of potassium carbonate from that of sodium carbonate, the pH of your D-72 is quite a bit higher than the original D-72, increasing the difference.

Also, sulfur toners and gold toners work on very different chemical mechanisms and you can't take gold results to relate to my statements on sulfur and selenium toners.

The Potassium carbonate was adjusted to match the sodium carbonate molar amount for the original Ansco 135 formula. The D72 was mixed at the standard formula using sodium carbonate. It was not modified.

My point was to note that Nelsons is a combination of Sulphide and gold toning mechanisms. This combination removes the bleaching affect experienced with straight sulphide type toners. It also negates the argument to avoid warm developers (at least the warm developer used in the test), when using Nelsons.

The only noticeable difference is in color. This can most likely be adjusted by altering toning time and/or temperature.

The test speaks for itself.

 

[Ryuji]

This combination removes the bleaching affect experienced with straight sulphide type toners.

Polysulfide toners actually increase Dmax if used with suitable developers. When using AGFA paper and Tektol Standard developer, I see noticeable increase of Dmax but only after a day or two. Bleach-redevelopment type sepia and hypo-alum toners are the ones that lose Dmax.

Anyway, Ansco 135 is called "warmtone" but it's really a small variation of D-72, and not a real warmtone developer (such as AGFA 120) and, with the use of gold toner, your test has little to relate to my recommendation to avoid warmtone developers above. I've given two specific kinds of warmtone developers that don't work well with polysulfide toning, for example.

 

[Ryuji]

However, in general, sulphide toners will decrease the dmax in a print. The usual recommendation is to print the image down before toning. But, using a neutral or cooler developer may or may not help minimize the bleaching effect. I have not tested this.

The above is not generally true. Polysulfide toners can increase Dmax of the image if used with suitable print developer. Anyway, your posts are written based on your persistent misinterpretation of my posts. I'm not recommending Dektol 1+2 to minimize bleaching effect. I'm recommending developers that maximizes the possible range of toning effect. I already said this multiple times.

After all, if you use Dektol 1+2 (or Silvergrain Tektol Standard 1+9) in combination with polysulfide toner like Kodak Brown Toner, there is no "bleaching effect" to worry about.

 

[don sigl]

The above is not generally true. Polysulfide toners can increase Dmax of the image if used with suitable print developer. Anyway, your posts are written based on your persistent misinterpretation of my posts. I'm not recommending Dektol 1+2 to minimize bleaching effect. I'm recommending developers that maximizes the possible range of toning effect. I already said this multiple times.

After all, if you use Dektol 1+2 (or Silvergrain Tektol Standard 1+9) in combination with polysulfide toner like Kodak Brown Toner, there is no "bleaching effect" to worry about.

It seems you have considerable ability to misinterpret what I've been saying. I doubt there will be much I can do for you concerning that matter. However, I do not agree that Ansco 135 is similar to D72. The ph is significantly different. Nor do I agree with your blanket statement stating that warm tone developers should not be used with warm toners. You have made that comment several times and it is incorrect.
I can also use Defender warm tone developer and see similar results. Again this developer is not similar to D72.
It may be true that some developers work better than others, but whether they produce warm tones is not a sole indicator. Such blanket statements are misleading and should be avoided. Now you seem to be saying that the warm developer I tested is not a warm tone developer. I guess you are entitled to that opinion. I would choose to disagree with that, and quite a bit of what you have been saying in this thread.

 

[Ryuji]

You are the one making blanket statement. I'm saying that warmtone developer and polsulfide toners don't produce better results, sometimes cooler black than untoned and sometimes lose tonality. I'm referring to a specific chemical basis of different morphology of image silver grains that were produced by various developers and how polysulfide and selenium toners interact with it. I never made comments regarding developers and Nelson gold toner.

The difference between Ansco 135 and D-72 is not much more than dilution and difference in pH, but if you used potassium carbonate in equimolar amount the difference in pH is not that large. (potassium carbonate is a stronger alkali than sodium carbonate used in this way.) The difference is smaller than other kinds of warmtone developers I described before in this thread as well as in depth on my website. Compared to Agfa 120 or 123, which are real warmtone developers, Ansco 135 does not have much to differentiate from diluted D-72.

Anyway, I'm not interested in dialog on continuing dogma of Nelson gold toner when my recommendations are indeed regarding polysulfide and selenium toners. I have data to back up what I'm saying and my data are in good agreement with those published by Ira Current. You misquoted my recommendations as well as other statements several times and you don't seem to realize that you are talking about something totally different from what I wrote.

 

[don sigl]

Ok, lets look at some of what you have been saying exactly,

"So, use warmtone developers ONLY IF you don't want to tone the image at all and live with the shortcomings on the inferior permanence."

Not sure how I could misinterpret this statement, but I believe you are saying don't use a warm tone developer if you are going to tone an image. I've got to disagree with this one. And much of what I have been posting is meant to illustrate the error of your statement.


"As I said in my previous post, Dektol 1+2 is a good choice for prints to be toned. Use it if you tone the prints in any of your toners."

Again, tough to misinterpret, sounds like any toner means any toner. I guess that would include warm toners like Nelsons. Now if that isn't a blanket statement, I don't know what is.

"When you have warm brown image obtained by warmtone paper and warmtone developer, and tone it in a toner, many toners will make the image weaker. A common symptom is loss of shadow density, loss of contrast, loss of highlight details, and disturbed tonality."

Well, I suppose there could be a difference of opinion concerning "warm brown image". And it is possible that some toners would make the image weaker. But my point with these posts was to point out the fact that there are warm tone sulphide toners available that increase density and contrast.
You talk about a range of toners, whether you like it or not, nelsons falls into that range of warm toners.

I do agree with you in that discussing this subject with you is.... well useless. I will, however, be more than happy to run a similar test with d72 and a warm developer of your choice. I will predict that toning in nelsons (a warm tone toner) will increase shadow density and increase contrast on Forte PWT regardless of any warm tone developer you would suggest.
And, that the comparison between the toned warm image and the toned d72 image will be comparable in contrast given that the contrast and shadow density in the two untoned images are equal.

In my mind, when you boil it down, I hear you saying that you are better off using a developer like dektol (or a developer with similar composition) if you are going to use a warm toner. I, on the other hand, believe that there are warm toners available that would negate the above statement.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

MEANWHILE in the real world, experimentations happened. First try was Polywarmtone PW-17 (ivory, semi-gloss) dev in PolymaxT. The paper came out of the fixer perfectly neutral black. It was then hypo-cleared and rinsed thoroughly, then toned in selenium and rinsed again.

The image is now a very rich chocolate brown that has faint traces of purple/red, but very faint. Compared to a neutral tone paper toned in selenium, this is the real Brown. A scan will come eventually, but this has proved so far that toner really made the warm tone be.

Next test will be the same paper in Dektol, then selenium toned again. More scans to come.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Here's a scan of PWT toned in selenium. I tried everything I could with Kentmere WT to obtain a tone, but it would need a different toner, for it stays reluctantly neutral.