Seeing more (real) detail in 6.400dpi scan than in 3.200dpi scan (on that same scanner) is unfortunately no proof that scanner can resolve more than 3.200dpi. It's just proof that increased (real) resolution comes from oversampling (stepper motor having better resolution than lens). Very easy to check if you have a resolution target.
How do you scan 4x5 film with a V600? It's not made to do that.
Real resolution is real resolution. And the scanner is not designed to oversample at 6,400 at all 6,400 is the nominal optical resolution.
I agree but I’m saying their methodology, which is not listed, was flawed since it’s clear that the scanner is out resolving the film which would be impossible at 1350 dpi that’s nowhere near acceptable for scanning miniature negatives and yet the scanner performs admirably.
And look at the test target scan they show. They have test patterns larger than the size of the eyelashes in my photo looking like a blurry mess.
There’s no way they didn’t get the scan out of focus somehow
That's exactly how this desktop scanners are designed. Stepper motor resolution ("Y-resolution") is real, but unfortunately lens and sensor that would have that resolution ("X-resolution") are absolutely beyond the mechanical and economical envelope of those devices. Read this article carefully to understand how this class of scanners is designed. The resolution which you call "assumed" by many people is in fact measured and in line with the design. People testing this scanners may not go into trouble of finding the absolute best position of the film above the scanning bed so they in fact might be a bit out of focus and leaving some resolution on the table, but that's understandable. Their job is to test a scanner as supplied.
Get a resolution target and see for yourself that V600 can't get anywhere near 3.200dpi. It will probably be 1.500dpi out of the box, maybe close to 2.000dpi if you are really lucky or you play with the film holder position.
Epson 4990 @4.800dpi nominal resolution which is actually resolving about 2.000dpi:
(if you get considerably more from any 4990 or V600 you can have my drum scanner for free)
And yes it is assumed you act like a website called filmscanner. God damned info is the same thing as a peer reviewed journal. This isn’t scientific in any way
I’m not saying you can get considerably more than any number you’ve given, just literally significantly more than measured by filmscanner.info. Countably more resolution than 1350dpi
Filmscanner.info is mostly a shop for film scanners, and they like Silverlight. I never used this software, but that this site says in most reviews how much better the results with this are is strange to me... Why should give using the manufacturer's SW or vuescan give other resolution values?
So, while there is a lot of useful information on this site, you need to interpret their reviews a bit...
As you can see we're resolving beyond the grain of the film.
the presence or absence of each grain,
Here now is a 400% zoom showing
Quite right. One should double-check not just ScanDig, but others too.
Having personally tested a number of scanners that were also tested by ScanDig I can tell you that ScanDig is probably much much closer in their assessment of what you can expect from an Epson V600 (out of the box) than anybody claiming the ability of this scanner resolving "beyond grain". They make money from selling this scanner, why would they knowingly lie about it's capability? To coax you into buying a more expensive scanner like V850? I doubt it, cause if you listen to some people here, they are grossly wrong about that scanner's performance too. So they are obviously not interested in selling V850 either or any other desktop scanner they are selling since the only scanners that perform really great in their tests are discontinued...
I have yet to see anyone post significantly better results from their scanners (using supplied holders!) than what is shown in ScanDig's reviews (apart from Plustek scanners, I mentioned that they either have extremely bad luck with them or straight don't like them (one model in particular)). I also find it quite odd that people bashing ScanDig reviews don't believe in using a resolution target for measuring scanner's resolution...
A nice "user" review of V600 that doesn't pretend to be what it's not and also has side-by-side comparison to Fuji Frontier 2.000dpi scans.
I don't see it.
I suspect your understanding of what grain is in relation to silver particles is not entirely sufficient to make the interpretation you think you're making.
mush. It's showing mush.
I've scanned quite a bit of HP5+, as well as other kinds of film, on a scanner that evidently outresolve yours as well as a flatbed that's in the same ballpark. What you've shown in your example is a relatively low optical resolution interpolated image to fit a certain dpi resolution. I can tell you that if you scan at a higher resolution, you'll notice the grain takes on a sharper and better defined look. The results you posted are pretty much on par with a scanner that resolves in the 1000dpi-1500dpi range.
Here's an example of HP5+ scanned at 3200 on a scanner with an optical resolution that's around 3000dpi (according to the people you don't trust):
View attachment 315505
This is scanned without further processing such as sharpening. Note that the grain (same film as yours!!) is quite well-defined and looks, well, sharp. If you were right in saying that your 6400dpi scan has already outresolved the film, then the above scan simply couldn't exist. Alright, my scan is 3200 dpi, yours is 6400, so you're skeptical. Let's do a little experiment.
I could upsample my scan to 6400dpi so you can compare it with your scan, to which end I took a randomly selected small sample of your scan so you can see the difference:
View attachment 315507
It's the same digital resolution (6400 dpi) which you can easily see is a pretty meaningless piece of information; you can upsample any low-res image to insane levels by whatever interpolation mechanism you prefer, or apply oversampling if you're fancy, but this doesn't restore image information that wasn't scanned in the first place. On the left, there was a little more information to begin with, so the upsampled image doesn't look as mushy as the one on the right, which evidently didn't have much image information to begin with.
You could approximate the optical resolution of your scanner by downsampling your scan to the point where things start to look like they're actually in focus. This starts to happen around the point where you reduce your scan in size to about 25% of the original. That translates to around 6400/4 = 1600dpi. Interestingly, that's pretty close to what some people who take the time to test this properly try to make you believe.
Alright, for shits & giggles, here's a flatbed scan from a scanner that's in the same league as yours. It's a little older, but in terms of optical resolution, it's somewhere in the same ballpark.
View attachment 315508
This is again HP5+, I think developed in Rodinal, and scanned at 3200dpi. Here's the same thing (well, a crop) upsampled to 6400dpi:
View attachment 315510
We're now looking at the same sort of mushy image as your original scan. You could brush it up a little by adjusting contrast and applying some sharpening; I did neither and just lazily cropped part of the jpg scan as I had it on my harddrive somewhere.
If I play with this a little, I can determine that the actual optical resolution of this flatbed scan would be somewhere around 1600dpi, pretty much like yours. That's again consistent with the German guys who rated the scanner I use at around 1800dpi if memory serves.
Now, you can always be overly optimistic and argue that the pixels you're seeing are all meaningful, but that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the real world.
Sorry to be so critical, but if you're critical on someone else's work without showing the money, then you make yourself vulnerable for the same kind of argument.
PS: I have no interest in the filmscanner people commercially or otherwise. In the past, I did consult their work frequently and have always found it to be consistent with real-world experiences, either mine or other people's. Their testing methods I also find sufficiently transparent to be able to interpret the outcomes, so I'm not exactly sure what your problem is with them in this respect.
My problem with filmscanner.info is one of methodology. They have sample sizes of one, they have no statistical analysis because of that, and they do not publish the precise steps they took to obtain their data.
It’s very difficult to draw conclusions based on anecdotal evidence like this. Hence my skepticism.
Epson 4990 flatbed
Read this article carefully to understand how this class of scanners is designed.
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