Jed Freudenthal
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A few notes:
It would be interesting to know how it is planned to determine the CI of a pyro negative.
A point to keep in mind is that the stain to silver ratio isn't necessarily linear. Some combinations of film and developer are, some aren't. This throws a big monkey wrench into attempts at using a densitometer. It is possible to correlate densitometer readings to print densities - but the densitometer readings themselves have little meaning when it comes to measuring the niceties of the image.
Low sulfite pyro formulations go bad minute-by-minute from oxidation with contact with the air. Sensitometric results are not repeatable. Additionally these formulations produce copious and variable amounts of over-all stain; the overall stain is often mistaken for image stain as it masks a true appreciation of the real amount of image stain.
Last week I cleaned the place up and in the general tossing of things threw out about 100 step-wedge pyro negatives that were used in the development and testing of the Pyro enlarging meter. Never wanted to see the damn things ever again. Oh, well, c'est la vie.
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... Needs some thought, what's the Step wedge ? Would it be easier for me to shoot and process. ...
... I would suggest to Ralph, just try the staining developers and see how they behave. There are properties you cannot see in density measurements. The artistic note. ...
... Low sulfite pyro formulations go bad minute-by-minute from oxidation with contact with the air. Sensitometric results are not repeatable. Additionally these formulations produce copious and variable amounts of over-all stain; the overall stain is often mistaken for image stain as it masks a true appreciation of the real amount of image stain.
Jed
Sorry, but I only believe in hard quantifiable evidence. The rest is the stuff myths are made of!
I'm starting to think this stuff ain't worth the effort.
...Lindan doesn't {like staining developers} that's his prerogative. He's made his anti-staining dev views very clear...
Last week I cleaned the place up and in the general tossing of things threw out about 100 step-wedge pyro negatives that were used in the development and testing of the Pyro enlarging meter. Never wanted to see the damn things ever again. Oh, well, c'est la vie.
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Apparently, you got stuck on these pyro negatives...
...I would like to refer to the paper of M.A. Kriss, Im,age structure, The theory of the photographic process 4 th ed. Th. James ed. On p. 618, Kriss shows three pictures with the same density, but they differ in microstructure...
...In no time you are struggling with the laws of physics...
Some like staining developers, Lindan doesn't that's his prerogative. He's made his anti-staining dev views very clear but never been able to substantiate his perverse opinions.
I recommend using one of his Darkroom Automation Pyro meters to determine the CI of the Pyro and D-76 negatives.
I was stuck on the shear tedium of reading stacks of pyro step tablets and the tedium of reading even greater stacks of prints of said step tablets.
I cannot imagine you are going to read all silver and stain densities on the negatives and the densities on the prints without evaluating the readings. What was the result of only a few readings?
I agree with you about the effects of 'microstructure' on the look of a picture. There isn't any need to invoke anything exotic - grain certainly effects the look of a picture. The HD curve obviously doesn't tell all. Staining developers, with their dye/stain cloud formation, effect the look of the grain.
It is not just the look is different on a picture, but the perceived density as well. See the paper of Kriss.
The question at hand, though, is that of the gross macro effect of the stain on the HD curve. It is a question that, to the best of my knowledge, has never had a definitive answer. There is little in the literature about tanning/staining developers, but as Kodak abandoned pyro developers a long time ago it isn't surprising.
There is a lot of information published on tanning/staining developers in the European literature. These developers were the common developers for professional photographers. However, all these results are to be translated to the optics of modern lenses. The old lenses always masked the details in the final print.
Unless the contributing effects of the 'pyro look' can be separated the issue devolves into the usual polemic about things that can't be measured. All physical things can be measured, though one may often not know how.
All physical things can be measured. Therefore we can measure the densities of stain etc. But how we perceive these densities with our eyes is also a matter of our brains. For that reason, the density measuments are of limited value ( see paper of Kriss)
That's why I feel a good starting point is an instrumented approach looking just at the effect of pyro stain on the transfer of negative exposure to print tone. Start with things that can be measured without requiring the resources of Perkin Elmer.
MTF techniques may fall short when it comes to looking at micro effects in film. MTF assumes the system under consideration is linear and continuous. At the micro scale photographic images aren't analog anymore, they are a very messy digital form consisting of fuzzy brillo-pad like grains, grain clumps and, in the case of pyro, clouds of dye. MTF will, like any measurement technique, gladly throw out numbers when fed data - any data, and one has to be careful one isn't falling into the old GIGO trap.
MTF is a description, not a technique. The manufacturers of lenses and film give their data. Within that range of spatial frequencies they are applicable, and extremely useful. I used it even in combination with microdensitometry in scientific applications.
Making proper micro scale measurement is going to require a scanning micro-densitometer. Not something most people have access to. A possible starting point might be the computer analysis of a photomicrograph of an edge - say a contact print of a razor blade.
* * *
On the macro side, a good starting point might be to look at the effect of a uniform pyro stain. Make a pyro contrast filter by bleaching the silver from a pyro negative of a blank wall, leaving uniform stain. Does the insertion of the pyro contrast filter have any effect on the HD curve of a print of a step tablet? - if not, there isn't any reason to go further with investigating the effect of pyro on macro-contrast. Maybe someone has already published the results of such an experiment?
I certainly like staining developers. I do not have the impression, that Lindan does not like them. In my opinion, Lindan doesnot like the fact that he cannot control them sufficiently with densitometric procedures.Some like staining developers, Lindan doesn't that's his prerogative. He's made his anti-staining dev views very clear but never been able to substantiate his perverse opinions.
Ian
In my opinion, Lindan does not like ...
The proposal to bleach the silver and print the remaining stain image has been done before...
... original post here deleted, not really appropriate on second reading.
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What I was proposing was something much simpler. Bleach the silver away from a uniformly stained pyro negative with no image (well the image of a blank wall or some such). Use the stained negative as an auxiliary contrast filter. See if this filter will alter the contrast obtained with say, #1, #3 1/2 and #5 filters.
Although this sounds silly at first thought, it may give a negative result. This would be significant, the reasoning being:
VC paper doesn't change highlight in contrast until one gets above #3 1/2 and so the stain may not have much effect of lowering highlight contrast at normal printing grades. The highlight contrast at normal grades is already at its lowest point and has no place lower to go.
Oh yes it works. But what does it tell you?
I have no idea. Why would I?
How did it work? What did it tell you?
It was just filtering like yellow ... I never finished this.
...the photographic results prevail.
Then it is not really worth talking about anymore, is it?
What results? I'm under the impression you said the 'experiment' never went anywhere?
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